End of the road ?? Or a new start...

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jlmacd
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End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by jlmacd »

Well, sadly, my '98 406 GLX 2.0 16v went for the MOT yesterday - and failed miserably.
They discovered both cills were rusted from the inside out which, consequently, condemned the seat belt anchor points. Coupled with failing the 2nd fast-idle emission test (infuriating as I only just replaced the cat last year but, apparently, it is not the 'correct' type!) and the need for a new track rod end, it would appear that it will not be cost effective to repair and retest. I was given a ball park cost of around £1200 for everything (test, parts and labour ) but, it was honestly pointed out that the replacing of both the cills could reveal possibly more work (welding-wise) than the estimate, depending on the extent of the rusting.
I can't complain: I've had her from 2004, one previous owner. Original mileage was 57000 and is now at nearly 183k ! Sad bit is that the car still runs sweet and has been maintained well (I wasn't aware of the corrosion damage, unfortunately. 13 years of, mostly dependable, use is pretty good I think. Am convinced she would have kept going for a good while yet too! (Reading some of the mileages achieved on the forum is certainly testament to that)

I have decided it is probably folly to spend £1200+ on the repair and retest, given the age of the car. Much as it pains me to part with it. However, here is my dilemma now: I have been searching around to replace it and have come across a 2003 2.2 HDi S Coupe for about the same cost as the repair. I am tempted to go for this but my concern is the mileage of this is currently at 131k. Can anyone shed any knowledge if this is worth considering? Have often thought of getting the coupe and read good things but it is uncharted territory for me.

Many thanks for any input/thoughts proffered!
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highlander
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by highlander »

The 2.2 HDi engine is hard-wearing enough that 130k miles is "just worn in" really. Keep them maintained and they will run forever. There are a couple of caveats with this engine that you won't have had on your old car. Firstly, the engine is new enough to have a diesel particulate filter installed, plus other anti-pollution systems. When not regularly used on trips long enough to let the system warm up, the DPF can clog up, and the car will go into limp-home mode. The other thing to pay attention to is the flywheel - it's a dual-mass unit. These are expensive to replace (though they can be converted to a solid unit). You should also pay special attention to the timing belt history; if it's due for a timing belt change, expect to pay between £350 and £500 to get this work done, and ensure they change the water pump, the belt tensioner kit, and the aux belt pulley and aux belt as part of the service.

The Coupe is a great car. Despite not having four doors, it remains practical enough to use as a daily driver - seats four actual adult human beings, complete with legs! - and the boot is big enough to put two large suitcases in, plus hand luggage. The back seats fold down, and all of a sudden the car can be used to take a lot of stuff up to the local dump, or to retrieve loads of building supplies from Homebase/B&Q/blah. The Recaro-built, Pininfarina-designed seats are comfortable - though the S trim car will have cloth seats, rather than leather (as found on the SE trim).

The beautiful Pininfarina bodywork is galvanized, so it doesn't rust unless it's been in an accident. Water can get trapped in the sills, but this isn't hugely common. The design is 21 years old, but is timeless, and still turns heads. The bumpers are the weak points; they have a tendency to crack even with low-impact shunts, and it's becoming increasingly rare to find undamaged examples. The bonnet is prone to stone chip damage, but that's just life, I guess.

The mechanical underpinnings are largely the same as on the regular saloon/estate models (with the exception of the front brakes, which may be Brembo 4-pot calipers on the HDi Coupe, depending on when it was built), meaning that spare parts are generally not too difficult to source or expensive. Exceptions are beginning to appear, such as rubber seals, plastic pipework, etc., but things like brake discs, pads, calipers, driveshafts, injectors, handbrake shoes, cables, filters, etc. are all easy to find. If you have a car with Brembo brakes, replacement calipers are difficult to find as these are popular items to use to upgrade other cars. It's always worth refurbishing these calipers rather than trying to replace them.

Hope this rambling nonsense in some way helps!
2002 (D9) Peugeot 406 Coupe SE, 2.2 litre Petrol. Scarlet Red/Rouge Ecarlate/Rosso Scarlatto. Black Leather interior. SOLD :(
2008 (E60 LCI) BMW 525i M-Sport, 3.0 litre Petrol. Carbonschwarz Metallic. Black Dakota Leather and Myrtlewood interior.
PeterN
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by PeterN »

My first Hdi estate has covered nearly 250k miles and was running perfectly until it got water in the electrics. The replacement has done nearly 200k and is running fine but that is the 2.0. engine which is somewhat simpler than the 2.2. The clutch and DMF were original on the first one but it was replaced before I bought the second one.

The Coupe is a very nice car, my son has one and it drives beautifully, it's even good on fuel doing 50-60 mpg on a longish motorway journey but my first 2.2 in a C5 was not, best was about 50 mpg, the 2.0. will do 60+ mpg on a long run. The 2.0. doesn't have a DPF which is one of the reasons it's more reliable but my son has had very little trouble with his.

You can get some bargains if you are prepared to travel, I paid £400 and £350 respectively for the last two I bought and I've done about 15k miles in one of them with no serious problems. I think we paid about £700 for my sons coupe but I had to got to Telford for it.

Peter
jlmacd
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by jlmacd »

Many thanks, Highlander, for the (very) informative reply. Certainly not 'rambling nonsense' - far from it - very, very helpful!

Reassuring to hear your comment regards the mileage and, I agree wholeheartedly about good, regular maintenance. My current GLX always had a religious oil/filter change every 6 or 7000 miles using premium quality oil (Mobil 1 New Life 0w-40w) and always ran the better for it, as well as regular servicing.

Duly noted your other points also. Re: the flywheel, when is this likely to need changing and how would one tell? Is this a likely maintenance issue?
Regards the DPF, if I am to take this car for a test drive, is there any obvious signs of the DPF being under par, or clogged, before it would drop into limp-home mode? Indeed, what would be the likely things to look out for with one of these when test driving/inspecting? I had read already that after a test drive one of the things to check was that the AC functions correctly - both hot and cold - as that is a common fault. Is that so?

Regarding the timing belt, the selling info states that it was changed at 51k but no mention of being done since. Would seem to me that this is due or, indeed, probably overdue. Would you agree? Might be this would be a haggling point on the asking price, given the likely cost?

Another interesting point I note is that, although the listing describes this to be an 'S' version, it is definitely showing black leather seats (and both front seats are electric) Maybe a typo? Any other defining points that would say it is an SE trim?

Thanks also for the description of the interior, particularly the roominess, and the suggested uses! Pretty much everything I have used my GLX for over the years and comforting to know the Coupe can do likewise.

Can't tell from the listing if it has the Brembo brakes. It was made in June 2003 - would that make it likely? Guess closer inspection would tell.

Sorry for all the questions but am just keen to be informed as possible before going to have a drive and a look.

So, from one Highlander to another (I hail from Inverness, originally!) 'many thanks for your post. Think I am sold on it....
jlmacd
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by jlmacd »

Thank you, Peter. I, too, had high hopes of my 2.0 GLX reaching the 250k mark and I believe it still would, were it not for the bodywork and other repair issues that prohibit it from getting passed its MOT. Great shame as it has been a good (and faithful!) vehicle but the cost of repair is prohibitive.

Again, encouraging to hear tell of your son's Coupe. Am now a little anxious about the DPF business though - all new to me, never having owned a diesel car before. That and, in this case, the almost certain need for the timing belt to be renewed. All makes the potential cost a little more daunting.

Still think it is worth a look though...
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Doggy
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by Doggy »

I'm on my 2nd 2.2 HDi estate - ran the first one from 2008 - 2012 taking it from 103k to 190k miles - it's still going on 290k plus.
I've had the current one from 2012 / 88k and have added almost 100k. It's still as fit as a butchers dog and have no worries planning a fully loaded dash to Provence next month.
These have been the most reliable cars I've ever owned.
2002 HDi 2.2 Exec Estate, (2008-12) (wonderful)
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate (2012-19) (also a gem)
2009 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi VTR+ Estate (godawful heap)
2008 BMW E91 330i touring (great fun - murdered by a reversing SUV)
2007 BMW E91 325i touring (slower smoother quieter)
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highlander
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by highlander »

jlmacd wrote:Re: the flywheel, when is this likely to need changing and how would one tell? Is this a likely maintenance issue?
I've never owned a diesel, or any car with a dual-mass flywheel. Someone else here would need to advise you on that front.
jlmacd wrote:Regards the DPF, if I am to take this car for a test drive, is there any obvious signs of the DPF being under par, or clogged, before it would drop into limp-home mode? Indeed, what would be the likely things to look out for with one of these when test driving/inspecting? I had read already that after a test drive one of the things to check was that the AC functions correctly - both hot and cold - as that is a common fault. Is that so?
The car would be down on power. There is also a light on the dash to advise of problems with the particulate filter - if it's lit, then it's a bargaining point, not least because that would be an MOT failure. Ask the seller to ensure the engine is cold when you get there, and test drive it until it's warmed all the way up, and ensure your test route includes somewhere you can get it up to 70; if it performs well through the temperature range as well as the rev range, it's probably fine.

Aircon isn't something I'd say is any more or any less likely to break on these cars than any other. Mine works fine, never had any trouble with it. Ditto with my previous LX saloon. Icy cold air, every time.
jlmacd wrote:Regarding the timing belt, the selling info states that it was changed at 51k but no mention of being done since. Would seem to me that this is due or, indeed, probably overdue. Would you agree? Might be this would be a haggling point on the asking price, given the likely cost?
Belt change interval should be around 8 years or 80,000 miles, depending on how the car has been driven. I'd change the belt, if I were you, just to be sure. Peace-of-mind goes a long way.
jlmacd wrote:Another interesting point I note is that, although the listing describes this to be an 'S' version, it is definitely showing black leather seats (and both front seats are electric) Maybe a typo? Any other defining points that would say it is an SE trim?
S-trim cars don't have headlamp washers - you can see the little parallelograms on the bumper in front of each headlamp unit. S-trim cars also don't have the JBL speaker system - the speaker grilles on the SE have the JBL logo on them, and there is an amplifier hidden behind a flap on the left-side of the boot, in behind where the CD changer cartridge is. The flap on the right side of the boot houses the sat-nav system only. That covers the most obvious points.
jlmacd wrote:Can't tell from the listing if it has the Brembo brakes. It was made in June 2003 - would that make it likely? Guess closer inspection would tell.
That would put the car as one of the later models sold in the UK, and make it less likely to be equipped with Brembos. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - the Brembo calipers are prone to squealing (loudly!), and it's not always clear why it happens. If yours does not have the Brembo calipers, it will be the same Lucas caliper units found on all 406 saloon/estate models and all 2.0 and 2.2 litre petrol Coupes. They're readily available and cheap to buy, if replacements are required. The Brembo units do have better pedal "feel" as they are four-piston units, whereas the standard Lucas are single-piston units. Being 4-pot calipers, they can also brake rather harder if required.
jlmacd wrote:So, from one Highlander to another (I hail from Inverness, originally!) 'many thanks for your post. Think I am sold on it....
I'm from Thurso; I love Inverness - lovely little city. We always went down there on the train for shopping trips, on account of there being sod-all in the way of shops up in Caithness.

Hope the Coupe turns out to be a peach - let us know how you get on! :)
2002 (D9) Peugeot 406 Coupe SE, 2.2 litre Petrol. Scarlet Red/Rouge Ecarlate/Rosso Scarlatto. Black Leather interior. SOLD :(
2008 (E60 LCI) BMW 525i M-Sport, 3.0 litre Petrol. Carbonschwarz Metallic. Black Dakota Leather and Myrtlewood interior.
PeterN
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by PeterN »

There used to be a Citroen dealer in Thurso, don't know if it's still there. We do Caithness and Sutherland every year, have done since before the new A9 was built. A friend of ours used to run the TV shop in Lairg. We stayed at a cottage in Bilbster for 17 years, now stay at Rogart but usually do the trip north, we have some friends down by Wick harbour. Our favourite part of the country.

Peter
jlmacd
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by jlmacd »

Thanks again, Highlander, for the additional info. Much appreciated.

Having now read further about DPF (and their problems) I am now feeling a bit anxious about opting for a diesel. This is compounded further in light of the imminent, proposed government 'Diesel Scrappage' scheme. Perhaps my fears are unfounded though but, like yourself, I have never owned a diesel car (I see now yours is a 2.2 petrol) so have no first hand experience of these matters. Would be good to hear some reassurance from a Coupe diesel owner - particularly one owning a model with a DPF fitted!
I read Doggy's excellent article here about cleaning out the DPF and, effectively, bypassing it. Think that was posted some time back (2010?) but I believe to do so after 2014, when the rules changed, would render the vehicle illegal for road use (?)

Given the mileage is at 131k+ I am assuming that the DPF is probably nearing the end of its time but, again, I wouldn't know for sure. Can anyone shed light on the life expectancy of one of these?

Agree also about changing the timing belt - would say that is a given. No problem with that.

No, what troubles me now is that I am quite taken with the car but, if possible, would prefer a petrol. Unfortunately, the only petrol versions I have found are all 3l V6. Beautiful car and have read great things about them but sadly, for me, too costly to run.

Bit of a dilemma now. Guess it would do no harm to go have a look at the one I have found.... just don't want to be digging a hole for myself.
GingerMagic
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by GingerMagic »

Hi, welcome.
To me, the diesel Coupe is the one to go for if you are doing plenty of driving ( and who wouldn't in such a great car ) and the V6 would be my choice if it was a 'weekend car'...
Like Doggy, I have had 2 406s with the 2.2hdi engines - both had the DPF removed and a mild remap to make the most of this great engine. You should also expect to get around 40mpg round town and at least 60mpg on a run.
Of course there are potential issues, as with all cars, but the help on the forums is excellent and most issues can be dealt with.
As for the removal of the DPF, my cars passed MOT emissions no problem, and smoke is minimal if the EGR is blanked too. I believe the MOT man only looks for a DPF on vehicles manufactured after 2008, but I can't be sure.
The diesel scrappage scheme is something I know nothing about, but I can't see taxi drivers ditching their cars for petrol alternatives.....

Good luck in whatever you decide, but if you like the car then buy it.... :mrgreen:
2003 2.2hdi estate - mine
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
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highlander
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by highlander »

Couple of things to note about the V6 vs the smaller petrol engines:

- the road tax for the V6 and the 2.2 petrol are exactly the same (because of the emissions bands defined at the time)
- the 2.2 petrol is more fuel-efficient around town, but the economy during motorway miles isn't all that different, really

I've never driven a 2.0 petrol, but my understanding is that they get the best mileage overall.
Expect around 400 miles to a tank with mostly town driving on the 2.2, and around 600 miles to a tank with motorway driving
The V6 can probably expect around 300 - 350 miles to a tank with town driving, but still get between 550 and 600 with motorway miles

One of our members, I think it was mrv6, said he managed to get 1000 miles out of a fully-loaded V6 Coupe on the return journey from the Nurburgring.

I'd definitely take a serious look at the running costs of the V6 as it might not be as wallet-crushing as you'd expect.
2002 (D9) Peugeot 406 Coupe SE, 2.2 litre Petrol. Scarlet Red/Rouge Ecarlate/Rosso Scarlatto. Black Leather interior. SOLD :(
2008 (E60 LCI) BMW 525i M-Sport, 3.0 litre Petrol. Carbonschwarz Metallic. Black Dakota Leather and Myrtlewood interior.
jlmacd
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by jlmacd »

.... so, went to have a look today. Went armed with a print out of the 'what to look for when buying a coupe' check list from the Coupe Club forum (muchly appreciated!)

A list of what I managed to find wasn't working or not too great

1. drivers electric mirror not working (nearside ok). Plastic trim cover for mirror fixings missing inside.....hmm!
2. passenger fwd/back switch not working (but motor runs both directions when seat back is moved, to allow access to rear seats. When fully back can hear the motor still trying to move it - something jammed?) Wasn't doing this when i arrived, only after moving it.
3. trip computer doesn't seem to work? Could just be my stupidity, as I have never owned one! Tried all manner of manipulation/pressing of the end of the right hand stalk - as suggested.
4. Heated seats - both switches illuminate (engine running) but no perceptible warmth on either seat. Again, could just be me!
5. Front bumper - small crack, couple of scuffs on 'corners'
6. headlight washers - nearside visible (as plastic parallelogram cover is gone). Offside cover is there - can only assume washer assembly is present. Again, never had them so didn't know how to operate them to test at the time.
7. brakes - rear drums seem v.rusted (just like my GLX!) Pretty certain fronts aren't Brembo (think it said 'Delphi' on them)
8. corrosion - overall seemed clean. Obvious small patch on top of drivers cill directly below bottom corner of door. Been touched over but 'bubbling' is evident. Is this a worry?? As I said, my own GLX has just been condemned for the cill corrosion but this is nothing to compare. Had a good old firm prod along the length of both cills and they seem sound (well, nothing gave way, at least!)

Can't really comment on under the bonnet, not being a mechanic. All looked tidy enough. Vendor said he had just had an oil and filter change done. Looking at the oil on the dipstick - oil was pretty black looking and overfilled past the max. Hmmm? Looking inside the filler cap, looked a bit 'mucky'. Then again, as I said, I am more used to very regular oil changes on my GLX - but would have thought a 'recent' change would look cleaner (i.e. gold not black)

When asking about the DPF, vendor said the additive had just been topped up 'with the Peugeot stuff' at great expense. How to know or check??

All else is as you would expect for a older car ('03 reg): paint chips, sadly a small dink on the drivers door (opening damage, looks like but small)

Took it for a short drive (with vendor) but never really got to 'open it up'. Was a short stretch of dual carriageway and got it up to around 60-ish. I will be honest, again probably only me, but I was not given to any sensation of power. Admittedly, I have been driving only the 2.0l 16v petrol for years but rather expected a similar, or better, response from it. Could be, because the gentleman was sitting next to me- and it is his car - I was being a little over cautious. On the faster bit of road it felt, to me, struggling to get on upwards towards 70mph (surely not?).
Don't get me wrong, it wasn't in 'limp mode' or anything but felt, perhaps, underpowered? Could this be indicative of a clogged DPF, I was wondering.

Last thing I would mention would still be the issue of renewing the cambelt et al. I got a quote for the full cambelt service (belt, water pump, aux belt etc,) my normal garage (who I trust and are always honest - a rarity these days, I know). They said it would cost £550 to do the full job.
I tried to engage in conversation with the vendor about the fact it is due but there wasn't much give. I still feel it is a valid haggling point though, no? Asking price is £1150 - cam belt replacement will cost half as much again....

Am still a little puzzled regards the trim level: says in the advert a 2.2 HDi 'S' Coupe. Noticed, from Highlander's description, that it has the leather seats, headlight washers (well, maybe!) JBL badged on rear speakers (not evident on front), cd changer and cd sat nav player in boot, cruise ctrl, seat memory and (almost) positioning, heated front seats(again, maybe!)
That's not the principle selling point for me, nice as all the bits are, I am much more concerned with performance and reliability.

Am going back again tomorrow with a trusted mechanic friend for a second look and opinion.

Would very much value anyone's feedback here also and, thanks in advance to all, for their time and experience. Very much appreciated!
PeterN
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by PeterN »

You are always going to get some problems on a car of that age but as long there is nothing major and you like the car I don't think you will go far wrong although with those problems the price is a bit steep unless its immaculate. One thing to check is the head gasket, the first one we looked at for my son had a leaking HG, not serious but you don't know how long it's going to last. Check around the coolant filler cap for white deposits left by evaporating coolant, also run the engine with the filler cap off and check for bubbles, there shouldn't be any at all once its settled down, not even tiny ones.

Peter
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Doggy
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by Doggy »

Doesn't sound too promising - a standard 2.2 HDi has almost double the torque of a 2.0 petrol and should pack plenty of mid-range punch.

You can probably find a few other examples for the same money or less to get a comparison.
2002 HDi 2.2 Exec Estate, (2008-12) (wonderful)
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate (2012-19) (also a gem)
2009 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi VTR+ Estate (godawful heap)
2008 BMW E91 330i touring (great fun - murdered by a reversing SUV)
2007 BMW E91 325i touring (slower smoother quieter)
jlmacd
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Re: End of the road ?? Or a new start...

Post by jlmacd »

Thanks, Doggy. As I said, I'm going back again for a second look tomorrow and will take it for another drive - this time with feeling! Would that be indicative of poor state of DPF then? No sign of a warning light showing. Then again, I wouldn't be familiar with the symbol - or is a message on the display that appears?
FWIW, it just passed its MOT (recorded) end of March 2017. So, I would guess it passed the emissions test ok?
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