New Aussie face. Oldish stdt needing repair!

[kelpiebat]

Evening all;
I hail from Coffs Harbour on the east coast and a bit closer to Brisbane than to Sydney. The main family car usually does about 18-20k miles per year and for last 20 yrs have been diesels except for a 406 V6 that passed to the son when we bought a 407 2.0 HDi. After a total loss of power on the highway the 407 has suffered from rough idling that gets better with rpm until 1500 revs when it comes good and drives well. Despite 2 visits to local dealer the problem continues, so I punted on a 406 stdt estate with 240k miles in the hope of its power loss being simple. The idea was to get away from computer managed engines to something I have a good chance of fixing on the side of the road - there is a good 405 Bosch, to replace the Lucas, in a kangaroo killed SRDT when necessary.
The simple power loss turns out to be a cambelt issue. It isn't broken but the resulting valve timing adjustment was enough to break the 4 exhaust rockers. On account of seeing no need to re-invent the wheel it is hoped that some of you lads who have already undertaken such a repair as I'm facing will be kind enough to give some worthwhile advice and tips. The cam is yet to be lifted but so far it looks like the inlet valves and rockers are OK.
Am still without a Haynes so find the remarks, in some threads I've researched, about proper setting up of tensioners (cambelt and ribbed belt types) to be a bit confusing. Plan to change all idlers,tensioners, water pump, crankshaft pulley and both belts as well as 2 or more engine mount rubber inserts. The parts will come from U K due to the rather optimistic local pricing policies. Any ideas on a good ,honest source for parts.?
Any information, ideas and thoughts will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Happy Peugeoting

[Doggy]

Hi and welcome aboard.

Sorry to hear about your problems. I'm guessing you have a 2.1 diesel from the description, but that won't be obvious to everyone, so it'd be good to have your confrimation, (or otherwise).

I don't have any personal experience of this engine, but there's probably a few people on here who can help.

Hope you get it sorted without too much trouble.

[steve_earwig]

Hi there, welcome

Umm, 407? Or 406? Lucas injection would point towards a 2.1 yes, but what's

Despite 2 visits to local dealer the problem continues, so I punted on a 406 stdt estate with 240k miles in the hope of its power loss being simple.

this about? I'm confused You sold the 407 and bought a 406? Or you bought a giant mouse

[kelpiebat]

Thanks for the responses, and sorry about generating some confusion.
Over here in Aust., we don't get all the models you lads do, and I overlooked that. The 407HDi (136 hp) is the wife's car and developed an ongoing rough idling problem that begins with #1 injector's correction reading being ~140 while the others are all ~69 @ 800 rpm; by the time 1500 rpm is reached it is smooth and all of the 4 correction readings are 98.4. Closest dealer is 135 miles each way and though a nice lad he is bereft of ideas as to what is the root cause of the ECU telling #1 to overfuel. A local Fiat warranty man knows those engines but hasn't the scan tool to communicate fully with the ECU. Though agreeing the problem is electric/computer, he also feels a cylinder may be down on compression( and #1 glow plug is dead) but it is beyond me to understand a connection between low compression and extra fuel only until 1500 rpm. It is driveable but not much fun at low revs, especially in reverse.
Sorry, I digress from the 406 2.1dsl. With the 407 unwell and my shortcomings re fixing ECU's the idea of a minimal/no computer 406 7 seater was very appealing so it was bought in the hope that its loss of power was due to a blocked muffler. Apparently mufflers on 406s don't give trouble so I bought a bigger than expected repair. It is a cam belt problem that has broken the 4 exhaust rockers. It is hoped that only them and new belts, idlers, tensioners, seals, water pump and engine mount rubber inserts are all that will be needed to get it back into work. It is the 2.1 stdt diesel with the EPIC Lucas injection pump. The pump is in good health, which is unusual for them over here because most were fed on high sulphur diesel and then leaked badly when low sulphur was introduced. If/when the EPIC dies there is healthy Lucas and a Bosch 405 SRDT pumps ready for fitting.

Trusting the above clarifies the facts for any readers. Thanks very much for the feedback so far.

[Doggy]

Thanks for the explanation. We would mostly be thinking your 407 has a faulty injector or injectors - try a leak-off test?

I'm not sure how we can advise regarding bits for the 2.1 - maybe see what is obtainable locally and contact someone breaking one on eBay for the rest?

[Welly]

I can only add that I don't think the 407 will be down on compression by the usual means (bore wear) as it would always run like a pig bearing in mind it needs the compression to actually fire. This sounds like an injector or wiring fault.

I don't really know much about the 2.1 but all the Peugeot D's are pretty simple and tough and are not known to cause massive trouble when the cambelt craps out, the HDi quite often gets away with replacing a sacrificial cam bearing cap which was designed* to break away if the timing goes.

[Doggy]

Welly's right about the compression and starting. Also HDi's being direct injection start easily with or without glowplugs and they're definitely not going to affect idling / low speed running once the engine's warm.

[kelpiebat]

Morning to all , thanks for your words. Some things are now starting to become a little clearer.
First the 2.1 406 stdt's cambelt and the mess inside is visible. The harmonic balancer is undoubtedly the original(240,000 miles) and its rubber layer has failed with the result that the bottom cambelt cover piece now has a 5.5 inch hole in it. Just above that hole there is another break in the cover where the outer half of an idler has become separated and almost worn a complete hole in the raised part of the cover. Haven't unbolted any thing yet, but the Water pump looks very shiny, like as in nearly new, while the idler half is stamped SKF France. It looks likely that somebody was doing longevity testing or saving a few dollars. The intention is to source all the parts from UK/Europe - they are just simply too expensive here and not many wreckers have 406s. Who is good to deal with?
With the HDi engine I have changed #1 injector after getting 2 from UK and scan still has #1 overfueling. The old #1 tested as good on the bench. For about 18 months the engine suffered a random split second hesitation that was totally unpredictable. The events were quite rare with possibly 4 weeks of perfection and then could be twice in a half mile followed by 2weeks with nothing. The dealer scan found nothing. On the day it began rough idling after the engine effectively shut down at 55 mph, the split second hesitations became very frequent. Only the reset we use after an oil change got it going after the shut down and it has rough idled/missed since. As it warms up it seems to get better and increasing revs helps until at 1500 it is all sweet. To me it appears that the hesitations had to be electric/computer and whatever was the cause got much worse prior to causing the shut down and subsequent miss/rough idle. Would it be a possible theory that if #1 cylinder is a bit low on compression and with #1 glow out there is not enough heat to cause ignition and the ECU reacts by ordering more fuel which only generates more problem as the fuel consumes latent heat in its conversion to a gaseous state; but then it can run fine at 2000rpm for an hour and still miss/run rough at idle when the car stops. The injectors are Siemens class 5 .
By leak-off test do you mean the test for the common rail/pump pressure holding ability or the test to measure the return line flow from each injector?

[Doggy]

By leak-off test do you mean the test for the common rail/pump pressure holding ability or the test to measure the return line flow from each injector?

The latter, return line flow from each injector.
Since you now have a 'spare' injector, you could swap them systematically to prove if they all perform the same.
When I had 406 HDi injector problems, I found disconnecting an injector electrically gave an instant fault detection, so you probably don't have a bad connection.

I think you should get yourself a Peugeot Planet 2000 clone and do your own diagnostics. These cost around £70 delivered to a UK address and will almost certainly give you better info than you're presumably paying for now. Look for 'Lexia 3' on eBay

[kelpiebat]

Evening all. The 407's problem with #1 cylinder is loss of compression to such a degree that while #2 reads 290 psi, #1 won't lift the needle off the zero stop. By putting compressed air into #1 we find that air leaks from the exhaust when it shouldn't. Am yet to lift the aluminium cam cover plate to find the problem. Current theory is that a rocker is awry and causing a valve to remain slightly open. Nobody over here has come across an issue like this in a 2.0HDi before.
Hopefully it is easily repairable. If not then the engine complete with turbo leak will be replaced by a 307 2.0HDi unit.
Does anyone know of any cars that used the PSA 2.1 dsl engine in a nth sth configuration driving a 5sp manual.??