Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Moderator: Moderators
Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Looking for anyone who can shed some light on a mysterious phenomenon. My apologies for this being a long story, but I'm not sure which details I can leave out.
In March 2020 we were on our way back from a vacation trip, when suddenly upon an uphill acceleration a short but pretty loud rattle came from the engine. The same moment, all power was lost, "Antipollution error" popped up and the engine malfunction light went on with an annoying beep from the instrument cluster. Pulled over on the hard shoulder and tried to start. The starter did crank, strangely enough much faster than normal. But the engine did not fire up. It seemed there was no (or hardly any) compression so I was convinced that the worst had happened: broken timing belt (which had just been replaced btw) or some broken valve or whatever. I decided to leave it like that and had it towed away.
The car was transported back home at insurance cost. At home we lifted the rocker cover. I expected to see a terrible mess; however, all was perfectly fine. No broken metal bits, no loose parts. So we turned the engine by hand, and found all four cylinders having compression. In the end we decided to give it a go and, yes, it fired up perfectly! No ratting sound, no smoke, it ran perfectly normal.
About 1 year later a similar event happened. Heavily loaded (six persons + luggage), it was the first heavy hill climb after a year of all flat and slow driving (in NL the maximum speed is 100 km/h and there are no hills). The rattle starts unannounced, very subtly, but then increases within a few seconds to become pretty loud. This time it happened during the day so I could see an enormous blast of grey smoke in the rear view mirror. Loss of power, pulled over, but the engine kept on running in idle. So after a few minutes of recovering from our shock, we resumed the trip. No further problems.
A week ago again, on another vacation trip. Heavily loaded, first steep and long hill climb after a year of duff driving. Loud rattle, heavy smoke (definitely gray, not blue or black or white), "Antipollution error", EML light with a beep, complete loss of power (and wife in total panic).
Pulled over, engine had cut off. Tried to start. Again the cranking was much faster than normal, but the engine did not fire up. After bringing all the kids to safety behind the guardrail I decided to give it another go and yes, it started! So we all got in again and drove to destination without any further issues. EML light was still on but engine was running smooth as ever, no smoke, no loss of power (not even limp mode).
At arrival the EML light was still on. As an experienced PSA driver, I have my Lexia cable with me (never leave home without one ) Read the fault code: P1138 and P1112, see attached pics. I've seen the P1138 before: sometimes the engine runs on for a few seconds after ignition off. After cleaning the pressure regulator pin into the high pressure pump it goes away.
But P1112 is new for me. It seems the high pressure fuel pump could not generate enough pressure when the failure happened. It says 769 bars at 97% duty cycle. I guess the pressure should be much more (was at full throttle when the failure happened).
The next day the EML light no longer lit up, everything was normal again (and still is).
I am flabbergasted why a perfectly running engine suddenly dies with a loud rattle and loads of smoke, seems to loose compression, then starts again perfectly after a few minutes!
Bear with me: I have to explain my wife I want to keep a motor that runs perfectly fine for a whole year, bringing me to work every day, then fails horribly, without any warning or signs, when driving to a holiday destination.
In March 2020 we were on our way back from a vacation trip, when suddenly upon an uphill acceleration a short but pretty loud rattle came from the engine. The same moment, all power was lost, "Antipollution error" popped up and the engine malfunction light went on with an annoying beep from the instrument cluster. Pulled over on the hard shoulder and tried to start. The starter did crank, strangely enough much faster than normal. But the engine did not fire up. It seemed there was no (or hardly any) compression so I was convinced that the worst had happened: broken timing belt (which had just been replaced btw) or some broken valve or whatever. I decided to leave it like that and had it towed away.
The car was transported back home at insurance cost. At home we lifted the rocker cover. I expected to see a terrible mess; however, all was perfectly fine. No broken metal bits, no loose parts. So we turned the engine by hand, and found all four cylinders having compression. In the end we decided to give it a go and, yes, it fired up perfectly! No ratting sound, no smoke, it ran perfectly normal.
About 1 year later a similar event happened. Heavily loaded (six persons + luggage), it was the first heavy hill climb after a year of all flat and slow driving (in NL the maximum speed is 100 km/h and there are no hills). The rattle starts unannounced, very subtly, but then increases within a few seconds to become pretty loud. This time it happened during the day so I could see an enormous blast of grey smoke in the rear view mirror. Loss of power, pulled over, but the engine kept on running in idle. So after a few minutes of recovering from our shock, we resumed the trip. No further problems.
A week ago again, on another vacation trip. Heavily loaded, first steep and long hill climb after a year of duff driving. Loud rattle, heavy smoke (definitely gray, not blue or black or white), "Antipollution error", EML light with a beep, complete loss of power (and wife in total panic).
Pulled over, engine had cut off. Tried to start. Again the cranking was much faster than normal, but the engine did not fire up. After bringing all the kids to safety behind the guardrail I decided to give it another go and yes, it started! So we all got in again and drove to destination without any further issues. EML light was still on but engine was running smooth as ever, no smoke, no loss of power (not even limp mode).
At arrival the EML light was still on. As an experienced PSA driver, I have my Lexia cable with me (never leave home without one ) Read the fault code: P1138 and P1112, see attached pics. I've seen the P1138 before: sometimes the engine runs on for a few seconds after ignition off. After cleaning the pressure regulator pin into the high pressure pump it goes away.
But P1112 is new for me. It seems the high pressure fuel pump could not generate enough pressure when the failure happened. It says 769 bars at 97% duty cycle. I guess the pressure should be much more (was at full throttle when the failure happened).
The next day the EML light no longer lit up, everything was normal again (and still is).
I am flabbergasted why a perfectly running engine suddenly dies with a loud rattle and loads of smoke, seems to loose compression, then starts again perfectly after a few minutes!
Bear with me: I have to explain my wife I want to keep a motor that runs perfectly fine for a whole year, bringing me to work every day, then fails horribly, without any warning or signs, when driving to a holiday destination.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater - just hit 690.000 kms
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100
Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater - just hit 690.000 kms
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100
Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Two things spring to mind...
1. somehow sucking air into fuel supply line. Check all fittings. How was fuel level in tank at the time of mishap?
2. Pressure regulator faulty. My pick based on your experience with it running on after ignition off.
How is your fuel filter? Debris in the fuel would affect the pressure regulator if it could get to it.
1. somehow sucking air into fuel supply line. Check all fittings. How was fuel level in tank at the time of mishap?
2. Pressure regulator faulty. My pick based on your experience with it running on after ignition off.
How is your fuel filter? Debris in the fuel would affect the pressure regulator if it could get to it.
Serial 406hdi licker
- Doggy
- Mod with a 2.2 HDi, De-Fapped!
- Posts: 10710
- Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:49 pm
- Location: Northants
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Trying to understand what could cause a temporary loss of compression, 2 things spring to mind.
1. A blockage in the induction system - if you can't get any air in there's nothing to compress
Does your car have an air doser intended to shut the intake air when the engine stops? If so could it be faulty?
2. Lack of oil on the cylinder walls could prevent effective piston ring sealing giving reduced compression.
Excess fuel supply can cause this in petrol engines, might it also be possible in a diesel? (A failing HP sensor might give excess fuelling and a low pressure fault code).
Just guessing, hope it might be some help
1. A blockage in the induction system - if you can't get any air in there's nothing to compress
Does your car have an air doser intended to shut the intake air when the engine stops? If so could it be faulty?
2. Lack of oil on the cylinder walls could prevent effective piston ring sealing giving reduced compression.
Excess fuel supply can cause this in petrol engines, might it also be possible in a diesel? (A failing HP sensor might give excess fuelling and a low pressure fault code).
Just guessing, hope it might be some help
2002 HDi 2.2 Exec Estate, (2008-12) (wonderful)
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate (2012-19) (also a gem)
2009 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi VTR+ Estate (godawful heap)
2008 BMW E91 330i touring (great fun - murdered by a reversing SUV)
2007 BMW E91 325i touring (slower smoother quieter)
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate (2012-19) (also a gem)
2009 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi VTR+ Estate (godawful heap)
2008 BMW E91 330i touring (great fun - murdered by a reversing SUV)
2007 BMW E91 325i touring (slower smoother quieter)
- steve_earwig
- Moderator
- Posts: 19811
- Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:09 pm
- Location: Jastrebarsko, Croatia http://www.jastrebarsko.hr/lokacija/
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
I'm pretty sure bore wash is petrol only. Yeah, the intermittent lack of compression is bizarre
The blocked inlet sounds good - like blocking the hose on a vacuum cleaner makes the motor speed up 'cos it's running in a vacuum.
The pressure regulator is looking mighty suspect, but as the snapshot doesn't give a time it might be recording problems with the regulator at other times and the sudden death thing might be unrelated. Maybe.
The blocked inlet sounds good - like blocking the hose on a vacuum cleaner makes the motor speed up 'cos it's running in a vacuum.
The pressure regulator is looking mighty suspect, but as the snapshot doesn't give a time it might be recording problems with the regulator at other times and the sudden death thing might be unrelated. Maybe.
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007
The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again.
The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again.
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Thanks for all your thoughts on this, really appreciated!
After the first incident I replaced the fuel filter, engine oil + filter, and drove 2 tanks empty with injector cleaner. At that time I suspected a leaking injector because of the overfuelling. Can injectors suddenly start leaking terribly, then 10 minutes later become "normal" again? Do injectors leak into the combustion chamber, or is the leaked fuel simply fed back into the return line?
When I replaced the fuel filter there was no sign of debris; the bottom of the holder tank was perfectly clean.
Could air in the fuel line cause the HP pump to "run dry"? That may explain the rattle, but not the cloud of unburnt fuel :-( The tank was 3/4 full.
Can the engine management "disengage" the HP pump completely? That may explain the faster turnover. But I think the HP pump is always driven by the timing belt, the electronics can only engage an additional "third piston".
The pressure regulator code P1138 and "running after ignition off" started just over a year ago. I attached the detail screen. I cleaned the pin going into the HP pump. There was some fibre / tiny hairy stuff on it. No metal (afaics). After cleaning it, it seemed to be solved. But recently I noticed it happening once or twice again. I will clean the pin again. I don't see how this could cause the rattle and gray smoke. (tbh I suspect the new fuel filter is of poor quality and letting go its fibre material.)
The air doser is still fitted, but I cut off the vacuum line into it and put a small screw in it. Could it spontaneously flip and block the air inlet? I don't see how this could cause the rattle sound.
Engine oil is at normal level: 5-6 out of the 6 boxes are visible in the instrument cluster when turning the contact key. And I also check regularly with the dipstick.
It happens always during a long, full throttle, highway (100 - 120 km/h) hill climb, with lots of weight (6 persons + luggage).
Forgot to mention: each time the coolant temperature was perfectly normal, around 90 degrees C.
Could it be "old-school" a sticking valve or a pumped up hydraulic tappet (or combination)? That may explain the rattle. An injector feeding fuel into the combustion chamber with a not (fully) closed exhaust valve may explain the unburnt fuel. Maybe it even explains the loss of HP fuel pressure?
After the first incident I replaced the fuel filter, engine oil + filter, and drove 2 tanks empty with injector cleaner. At that time I suspected a leaking injector because of the overfuelling. Can injectors suddenly start leaking terribly, then 10 minutes later become "normal" again? Do injectors leak into the combustion chamber, or is the leaked fuel simply fed back into the return line?
When I replaced the fuel filter there was no sign of debris; the bottom of the holder tank was perfectly clean.
Could air in the fuel line cause the HP pump to "run dry"? That may explain the rattle, but not the cloud of unburnt fuel :-( The tank was 3/4 full.
Can the engine management "disengage" the HP pump completely? That may explain the faster turnover. But I think the HP pump is always driven by the timing belt, the electronics can only engage an additional "third piston".
The pressure regulator code P1138 and "running after ignition off" started just over a year ago. I attached the detail screen. I cleaned the pin going into the HP pump. There was some fibre / tiny hairy stuff on it. No metal (afaics). After cleaning it, it seemed to be solved. But recently I noticed it happening once or twice again. I will clean the pin again. I don't see how this could cause the rattle and gray smoke. (tbh I suspect the new fuel filter is of poor quality and letting go its fibre material.)
The air doser is still fitted, but I cut off the vacuum line into it and put a small screw in it. Could it spontaneously flip and block the air inlet? I don't see how this could cause the rattle sound.
Engine oil is at normal level: 5-6 out of the 6 boxes are visible in the instrument cluster when turning the contact key. And I also check regularly with the dipstick.
It happens always during a long, full throttle, highway (100 - 120 km/h) hill climb, with lots of weight (6 persons + luggage).
Forgot to mention: each time the coolant temperature was perfectly normal, around 90 degrees C.
Could it be "old-school" a sticking valve or a pumped up hydraulic tappet (or combination)? That may explain the rattle. An injector feeding fuel into the combustion chamber with a not (fully) closed exhaust valve may explain the unburnt fuel. Maybe it even explains the loss of HP fuel pressure?
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater - just hit 690.000 kms
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100
Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater - just hit 690.000 kms
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100
Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.
- Doggy
- Mod with a 2.2 HDi, De-Fapped!
- Posts: 10710
- Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:49 pm
- Location: Northants
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
They can do both, I believe. Fuel leaking into the combustion chamber typically causes uneven or 'lumpy' idling. Excess leakage into the return line is harmless until the quantity gets so much that the pump can't pressurise the fuel rail and starting problems result.frog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:08 pm
After the first incident I replaced the fuel filter, engine oil + filter, and drove 2 tanks empty with injector cleaner. At that time I suspected a leaking injector because of the overfuelling. Can injectors suddenly start leaking terribly, then 10 minutes later become "normal" again? Do injectors leak into the combustion chamber, or is the leaked fuel simply fed back into the return line?
You are correct, ecu only controls 3rd piston. I don't think the load represent by the HP pump would be enough to affect cranking speed.Can the engine management "disengage" the HP pump completely? That may explain the faster turnover. But I think the HP pump is always driven by the timing belt, the electronics can only engage an additional "third piston".
I have never seen the air doeser arrangement on a 110 so cannot answer that, but I would make sure it is not possible for it to close, at least that would eliminate it.The air doser is still fitted, but I cut off the vacuum line into it and put a small screw in it. Could it spontaneously flip and block the air inlet? I don't see how this could cause the rattle sound.
2002 HDi 2.2 Exec Estate, (2008-12) (wonderful)
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate (2012-19) (also a gem)
2009 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi VTR+ Estate (godawful heap)
2008 BMW E91 330i touring (great fun - murdered by a reversing SUV)
2007 BMW E91 325i touring (slower smoother quieter)
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate (2012-19) (also a gem)
2009 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi VTR+ Estate (godawful heap)
2008 BMW E91 330i touring (great fun - murdered by a reversing SUV)
2007 BMW E91 325i touring (slower smoother quieter)
-
- 3.0 24v
- Posts: 3575
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:02 pm
- Location: Bournemouth
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Does this only happen under extreme load?
Do you think you could recreate this and purposely put the EML on, just to get some additional parameters?
In my inexperienced mind it's either lack of fuel or lack of air - but I guess that doesn't really narrow it down much...
Do you think you could recreate this and purposely put the EML on, just to get some additional parameters?
In my inexperienced mind it's either lack of fuel or lack of air - but I guess that doesn't really narrow it down much...
2003 2.2hdi estate - mine
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
My sons Ford Ranger has a similar problem if it has been standing for some time, no compression, wont start and rotates very fast on the starter. Took the rocker cover off and everything was fine, came to the conclusion that the oil had drained out of the bores so no or insufficient compression. We did get it going eventually but the same thing happened again after it had been parked up for several weeks but its been fine since.
Cant be one sticky valve I wouldn't think or it would fire one at least one other cylinder so still remains a mystery. Would be pleased to know what you find.
Peter
Cant be one sticky valve I wouldn't think or it would fire one at least one other cylinder so still remains a mystery. Would be pleased to know what you find.
Peter
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Drove back yesterday from the south of France, 1200 km, without missing a beat. Everything went perfect. The only strange noises came from the kids and the wife...
Must say traffic was light, somehow that causes less stress on the accelerator pedal.
For the next trip this will be my todo list:
- Replace fuel filter
- Flush engine and replace oil + filter
- Put a flask of injector cleaner on a full fuel tank.
Thanks again for your support!
Must say traffic was light, somehow that causes less stress on the accelerator pedal.
Yes, full throttle, 6 persons + luggage, 120-130 km/h uphill.
The only way I could think how to recreate this condition would be a dynamometer. But I guess that would cost more than the vehicle is worth.Do you think you could recreate this and purposely put the EML on, just to get some additional parameters?
Looks similar, but I cannot imagine there being a lack of oil in the bores. Maybe what I recognized as "no compression" is not that. I can only say that the starting turnover is a lot faster than normal. I will try to disconnect the HP pressure sensor just to see if that reproduces the fast turnover. If so, that would point to a sensor / electrical issue.
For the next trip this will be my todo list:
- Replace fuel filter
- Flush engine and replace oil + filter
- Put a flask of injector cleaner on a full fuel tank.
Thanks again for your support!
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater - just hit 690.000 kms
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100
Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater - just hit 690.000 kms
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100
Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.
-
- 3.0 24v
- Posts: 3575
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:02 pm
- Location: Bournemouth
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
My 2.2Hdi will die if I have too much with the throttle - it goes 'thud' and cuts out - takes about 10 mins for it to restart, then it's fine
If this sounds like your issue I would like to know how to fix it too.
If this sounds like your issue I would like to know how to fix it too.
2003 2.2hdi estate - mine
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Does this happen while driving? Or just when revving the engine while standing still? In my case it only happens while driving, after a few minutes of full throttle uphill driving.GingerMagic wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 2:05 pm My 2.2Hdi will die if I have too much with the throttle - it goes 'thud' and cuts out - takes about 10 mins for it to restart, then it's fine
If this sounds like your issue I would like to know how to fix it too.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater - just hit 690.000 kms
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100
Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater - just hit 690.000 kms
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100
Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.
-
- 3.0 24v
- Posts: 3575
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:02 pm
- Location: Bournemouth
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Only when driving, and driving with enthusiasm
2003 2.2hdi estate - mine
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Out of curiosity, what do you do when it cuts out? Just pull over on the hard shoulder and wait for 10 minutes?
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater - just hit 690.000 kms
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100
Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater - just hit 690.000 kms
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100
Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.
-
- 3.0 24v
- Posts: 3575
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:02 pm
- Location: Bournemouth
Re: Sudden loud rattle, engine cuts off, then restarts after a few minutes
Yes, pretty much.....
2003 2.2hdi estate - mine
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.