AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Discuss, ask, or get help with engine and mechanical queries in here.

Moderator: Moderators

jlmacd
1.8 16v
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 2:26 pm

AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by jlmacd »

I have been tolerating the situation with my 2.0 110 HDi Auto where the transmission will drop into 'limp mode' (stuck in 3rd gear) with the Snow and Sport lights flashing for some time now but my patience is wearing thin!

I experienced this after originally purchasing the car two years ago and, following the welcome advice given here, performed a full ATF oil change using the recommended ATF (Mobil LT71141). All was fine, excepting a few intermittent re-occurrences, but not a regular problem. Lately though it has been happening all too often and is very frustrating.

One thing I have noticed is this: it ONLY occurs when the car is first driven from cold. Usual symptoms - unconvincing shifting up through from first to third then (usually) the change from third to fourth fails with a loud 'thump' and the autobox is left in limp mode. This necessitates pulling over as soon as possible, turning the engine off and then restarting. Once restarted, all is invariably fine - no repeat of the fault.

I have read fairly extensively about this and the symptoms seem indicative of the pressure regulator and lock up solenoids failing and the suggested fix is to replace with the (superior) Borg Warner type. I wondered if anyone has attempted this successfully or remedied the problem by other means?

What has my curiosity though is the fact that the problem only ever seems to occur from driving the car from cold. I am wondering is the problem (and solution) may lie elsewhere? For instance, could it be a fault with the auto gearbox ECU (faulty wiring) or similar? I just cant see why, if the solenoids were the culprit, switching the engine off and restarting it seems to magically clear the problem. Surely, if the solenoids were failing then the fault would return once the engine was restarted but, it doesn't. It only reoccurs when again driven from cold.

Baffling - and very irritating!

Has anyone conquered this dilemma??
User avatar
steve_earwig
Moderator
Posts: 19798
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Jastrebarsko, Croatia http://www.jastrebarsko.hr/lokacija/

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by steve_earwig »

Can you get any fault codes off of it?

We're not too familiar with the auto boxes fitted to 406's here, you'd probably be better off looking at the coupe club, where they're more common.

It's probably the solenoids sticking, the fault is flagged because of the difference between expected data and actual. Changing them will probably solve it but they'd probably benefit from just a clean.
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007

The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again.
User avatar
Bailes1992
Moderator
Posts: 4292
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Bridgend, South Wales

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by Bailes1992 »

Unfortunately automatics are very rare in the UK so we don't have much experience of them going wrong.

When you say you changed the gearbox oil, did you just drain & fill following the leveling sequence? Or did you remove a gearbox cooler pipe and drain the entire gearbox? usually the gearbox will hold 10+ litres of ATF but you can only get 3-4litres out using the drain plug.
2020 BMW 520d MSport Touring My Daily
2017 Dacia Logan MCV 1.5DCi Laureate Wifes
1996 Land Rover Defender 90 County SW 300TDi My Toy
2003 Ford Mondeo ST220 3.0 V6 My Other Toy
WillNZ
2.0 16v
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 12:34 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by WillNZ »

Have you checked what solenoids your gearbox currently has in it? It may have the newer solenoids in it which just need replacing. If it has the older solenoids, the ecu needs reflashing as the newer ones operate on a different frequency.
Getting to the solenoids is relatively easy as the transmission cover can be removed with the gearbox in situ.
What year is it?
Serial 406hdi licker :cheesy:
jlmacd
1.8 16v
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 2:26 pm

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by jlmacd »

[quote=Bailes1992 post_id=252557 time=1558523090 user_id=1836

When you say you changed the gearbox oil, did you just drain & fill following the leveling sequence? Or did you remove a gearbox cooler pipe and drain the entire gearbox? usually the gearbox will hold 10+ litres of ATF but you can only get 3-4litres out using the drain plug.
[/quote]

Had my local garage do the ATF change (June 2017). Supplied them with 5L of ATF fluid (Mobil LT71141) so would assume just the drain plug quantity was replaced. Gearbox performance was much improved after the ATF change. Eventually though, the problem returned but is, as I said, intermittent and not constant. Always only happens when the car is being driven first from cold. Sometimes, when care is taken with initial acceleration up through the gears, once in 4th all is well. Any sudden acceleration will usually result in the box dropping into 'limp mode', always when the shift from 3rd to 4th is attempting to happen. Never had it happen between 1st/2nd/3rd gears.
Once engine is switched off and back on, seems to 'reset' itself and behave. Just can't figure out why!
jlmacd
1.8 16v
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 2:26 pm

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by jlmacd »

WillNZ wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 9:26 pm Have you checked what solenoids your gearbox currently has in it? It may have the newer solenoids in it which just need replacing. If it has the older solenoids, the ecu needs reflashing as the newer ones operate on a different frequency.
Getting to the solenoids is relatively easy as the transmission cover can be removed with the gearbox in situ.
What year is it?
No, I haven't checked which solenoids it has but would be almost certain it will be the original type. Car had one owner only prior to my buying it (a minister, I was informed, who only used it to an from the church!). It came with a stack of invoices for work done but was certainly no mention of anything relating to the automatic transmission, just the usual routine maintenance stuff.

Year of registration is 2002. On the assumption the solenoids are the original (older) type, I would also assume the ecu would have the correct firmware to operate these correctly, no?

I have watched the excellent 'DP0 and AL4 Automatic Gearbox repair' video on YouTube showing the strip down of the valve body to replace the solenoids and am tempted to have a go.
Two things concern me though, which make me reluctant to attempt the repair:
1) How do you reflash the gearbox ecu to be compatible with the new Borg Warner solenoids?
2) How is the 'correct adjustment of the manual valve index spring' achieved?

Anyone had experience of performing either of these operations?
WillNZ
2.0 16v
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 12:34 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by WillNZ »

2002 possibly has the later solenoids, I did a 2002 AL4 box a while ago which was doing much like you describe. It had the later solenoids (black tops). Replaced them and it was all good. No need for an ecu upgrade. I suspect the solenoids were just leaking pressure when cold as it also only did it when starting off in the morning. I would check yours, you may be lucky and not need the ecu upgrade.
I will look for the manual I downloaded somewhere for details of the index spring adjustment, cant remember exactly what I did back then... senility rulz... :oops:
I also did an earlier AL4 out of a 2000 model which had the older solenoids. This one was really bad, jumping into limp mode in any gear, going into neutral and then slamming into gear etc etc, MUCH worse than the symptoms you are experiencing. Put the new ones in and drove it. It definitely was better but not right. Had a local peugeot specialist (not agent, here they are totally useless...)do the ecu upgrade and all good. I was told that the software was supposedly only available from the agents but someone local suggested this bloke and he somehow had a copy, or knew what to do to fix the ecu...
I have wondered if, when doing the valve upgrade on an older system, simply swapping the old tranny ecu for a newer tranny ecu would work. In PP2000 there is an option for new ecu when setting up the auto box after oil change. Probably tells the engine ecu to redo handshake/whatever.. ?
In any case, when you do an oil change you need to reset the oil counter and the adaptives with PP2000 or the box will not properly respond to the work that has been done.
Serial 406hdi licker :cheesy:
jlmacd
1.8 16v
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 2:26 pm

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by jlmacd »

Hi Will. Many thanks for the extremely heartening reply. Great to hear it from someone who has actually been there, hands on!

Guess the only way I will find out which solenoids are existing is to get in there and have a look then. Uncharted territory for me here - how accessible is the valve box ie what needs to be out of the way to get to the solenoids and have a look see?

I did the reset on the oil counter in PP2000 after my local garage did the fluid change and think I remember seeing the option for the new ecu (but, obviously, left well alone!). Like yourself, I have a local chap, who used to work for Peugeot as a diagnostics engineer but went freelance years ago, who may be able to assist, if necessary, with the ecu upgrade.

First things first though, is the identification of the older type fairly obvious? I can see images of the Borg Warner type and understand your 'black tops' reference. Are the older ones to be found with plain metal backs and fold over tabs that I am seeing online?

When you did the 2002 AL4 box, you said you replaced the (later type) solenoids. Did you simply just replace them or did you also do the whole strip down, clean and reassembly of the valve body? I only ask because it may save, for me, opening a whole can of unnecessary worms! If recommended, I will certainly do it but, you know, 'if it aint broke....'

Many thanks for looking for the info regarding the index spring adjustment when reassembling. From everything I was reading, this seems a crucial part of the operation to get right, yet I could find no reference as to how to perform this. Much appreciate your help with this.

Thank you also for the thought regarding swapping the older ecu for a newer version, if required. I shall investigate this....
User avatar
Bailes1992
Moderator
Posts: 4292
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Bridgend, South Wales

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by Bailes1992 »

Considering replacing around 1/4 of the gearbox oil made a huge difference. Why not get 20 litres or so if the cheapest ATF that meets required specification you can and do a number of drain and fills to get the old stuff out?

I'd be tempted to drop the sump, give it a clean, replace the filter and do a drain and fill once a week till it starts coming out the same colour it goes in. I'd be shocked if your problem persists.
2020 BMW 520d MSport Touring My Daily
2017 Dacia Logan MCV 1.5DCi Laureate Wifes
1996 Land Rover Defender 90 County SW 300TDi My Toy
2003 Ford Mondeo ST220 3.0 V6 My Other Toy
WillNZ
2.0 16v
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 12:34 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by WillNZ »

Older ones have white and pink tops in 'boxes I have opened.

Access is good to open the case to get to the valve block but you must remove the block from the box IIRC.

I am still trying to find the manual, did make a paper copy but that is also in a "safe" place somewhere.... :oops:

Maybe there is someone on here with the BW solenoids that can do a dump for you? I no longer have the auto ones I did back then, the only one I currently have is being converted to manual by me as the auto is shot (and I also hate autos.. :twisted: )
Serial 406hdi licker :cheesy:
jlmacd
1.8 16v
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 2:26 pm

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by jlmacd »

Bailes1992 wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:21 pm Considering replacing around 1/4 of the gearbox oil made a huge difference. Why not get 20 litres or so if the cheapest ATF that meets required specification you can and do a number of drain and fills to get the old stuff out?

I'd be tempted to drop the sump, give it a clean, replace the filter and do a drain and fill once a week till it starts coming out the same colour it goes in. I'd be shocked if your problem persists.
Good suggestion. I have found 20L of LT71141 spec fluid at a reasonable cost. Not Mobil but a company called Westway Lubricants - never heard of them but they have 100% feedback on their eBay store and the spec is for LT71141.

How involved is it to drop the sump and replace the filter? I have heard tell the filter is pretty inaccessible - is that true?
User avatar
steve_earwig
Moderator
Posts: 19798
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Jastrebarsko, Croatia http://www.jastrebarsko.hr/lokacija/

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by steve_earwig »

Not sure if it'll be the same but the filter in the Toyota's gearbox is just a screen, it didn't catch any of the (admittedly fine) crap that was floating about in the oil.
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007

The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again.
User avatar
Bailes1992
Moderator
Posts: 4292
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Bridgend, South Wales

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by Bailes1992 »

jlmacd wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 10:09 am
Bailes1992 wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:21 pm Considering replacing around 1/4 of the gearbox oil made a huge difference. Why not get 20 litres or so if the cheapest ATF that meets required specification you can and do a number of drain and fills to get the old stuff out?

I'd be tempted to drop the sump, give it a clean, replace the filter and do a drain and fill once a week till it starts coming out the same colour it goes in. I'd be shocked if your problem persists.
Good suggestion. I have found 20L of LT71141 spec fluid at a reasonable cost. Not Mobil but a company called Westway Lubricants - never heard of them but they have 100% feedback on their eBay store and the spec is for LT71141.

How involved is it to drop the sump and replace the filter? I have heard tell the filter is pretty inaccessible - is that true?
It's usually not a hard task at all. I believe the AL4 is a variant of the ZF 4HP20. You may be better having a look to see what information you can find online about the ZF box.

I have Westway Lubricants MTF94 in our Defender and it seems to be absolutely fine.
2020 BMW 520d MSport Touring My Daily
2017 Dacia Logan MCV 1.5DCi Laureate Wifes
1996 Land Rover Defender 90 County SW 300TDi My Toy
2003 Ford Mondeo ST220 3.0 V6 My Other Toy
WillNZ
2.0 16v
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 12:34 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by WillNZ »

Found these on my computer, they are currently in word format after copying them off the web, I can convert them to .pdf if you cant open them...
Attachments

[The extension docx has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

[The extension docx has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

Serial 406hdi licker :cheesy:
jlmacd
1.8 16v
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 2:26 pm

Re: AL4 Auto Box - Anyone performed the Borg Warner Solenoids upgrade?

Post by jlmacd »

Brilliant! Many thanks for the information, Will - invaluable! (Word format is no problem btw)

Have had a good read and watched the suggested 4 YT clips - just need to brush up on my Russian! Further research shows that the Citroen fraternity suffer from this misery too - quite a lot of reference material out there.

Annoyingly, work takes me away for a while but, soon as I can, I will get the bonnet up and investigate which type of solenoids the existing ones are. Then I will at least know what I am facing!

Thanks again - watch this space, as they say....
Post Reply