Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by rwb »

I see what you mean.
I wonder if I missed a bit? Just got a few snaps quickly while I was in the boot -- wasn't paying much attention.

Current: 407 2.2 HDi 170 & C6 2.7 HDi.
Former: 406 1.9 TD; 406 HDi 90; 407 2.2 160; 307cc 180; 508 HDi 140.
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by madmadmax »

the relay was put there to stop the fan over loading a bursting in to flames for no reason. if you don't have a relay the put one in and do it now! and i don't mean tomorrow morning i mean NOW! or unplug the battery at all times, if the relay was faulty like mine was then you will have no fan and an engine code stored in the ecu just like me.

the fan is controlled by the ecu so if it's not the fan unit and it's not the relay or the wiring the it's the ecu

have you unplugged the temp sensor as this will get you a bit closer to the fault

the wiring for the relay

the green(thin) is a switched live the red/white is a permanent live before the relay and there's an earth

you should only have one relay as its multiplex the speeds are controlled bu the ecu

the wiring diagrams for the multiplexed car are non existent so you will have a hard time with this, i am a mechanic and i can't get hold of a diagram for the fan unit so don' look to hard

i need to take sum pics and do sum explaining of where the wires go and what the carry


the relay is an automatic switch so to turn it on you have to put 12v to pin 1 or 2 and that closes the switch pin 3 and 4 are now linked and the switch is on
Last edited by madmadmax on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by steve_earwig »

That's kind of news to me 'cos I'm looking at Sedre and there's also http://www.petrila.net/pug/Service/index.htm but I'm not seeing any mention of the relay, which I presume is a modification to stop the fans on full-mux cars bursting into flames...
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by steve_earwig »

Then again, using rpo 9020 (just after the change) I'm seeing 3 relays :?

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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by steve_earwig »

It's probably going to be no great surprise to add that neither of these has 4 wires to the motor :frown:
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by madmadmax »

i said the wiring diagrams are are non existent as non are corrected for the recall part or just plane wrong like the diagram above.

what are the numbers on the wires you have rwb?
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by steve_earwig »

There's a deal of difference between "non-existent" (useless) and "complete ballcocks" (worse than useless) :frown:

I'm liking the way that Sedre is showing me a completely different installation diagram to what's in Service Box too :roll:

Oh, and just out of interest I stuck the RPO in for my car (9891) and got... another bluddy diagram. 4 wires to the motor (which also features an IC) but no mention of any earths or relays so I don't see any point in posting the fecker :evil:

Am I right in assuming the relay is put there to isolate the power to the fan when the car is not in use?
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by madmadmax »

ye the relay is an isolator for the power

could you link me to sedre and tell me what's it for

that diagram may be what ye are looking post it up

in the diagram there are there 2 wires from the ecu to the Integrated circuit and the other two are power and earth
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by rwb »

madmadmax wrote:the relay was put there to stop the fan over loading a bursting in to flames for no reason. if you don't have a relay the put one in and do it now! and i don't mean tomorrow morning i mean NOW! or unplug the battery at all times, if the relay was faulty like mine was then you will have no fan and an engine code stored in the ecu just like me.
I am very glad to say that my current fan has a relay.

OK, well I was being stupid and hadn't seen this third connector.
Image
Unfortunately, I can't see the numbers on the wires or how the y-junction is wired (although it ought to be obvious) without destroying it...
Image

however I will have an old one to destroy before long
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Current: 407 2.2 HDi 170 & C6 2.7 HDi.
Former: 406 1.9 TD; 406 HDi 90; 407 2.2 160; 307cc 180; 508 HDi 140.
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by steve_earwig »

You mean this circular object with 3 wires heading off into the car somewhere?
madmadmax wrote:could you link me to sedre and tell me what's it for
I can't really post a link 'cos it's a program (it comes with the Service Box back-up) which you either download (torrent etc.) or buy on cds from ebay. If you want I can send links for the torrent but obviously it's nothing wonderful. It looks rather like the diagrams on Petrila (as posted above) but more interactive. The semi-mux diagrams are also filches. Oh, and it's MASSIVE.
that diagram may be what ye are looking post it up
Image
1513 : cooling fan electronic mixer
1320 : engine management control unit
BM34 : engine slave unit 34 fuse(s)

BM01 : engine fuse box battery + output
1589 : Fan unit module power supply
1540 : fan control 1 (-)
1599 : Fan unit diagnostic info

2V NR (2 way black)
3V GR (3 way grey)

You know, the more I look at this, the more I'm thinking what if the relay and wiring are actually categorised as part of the "cooling fan electronic mixer" There's the 3-way grey and the 2-way black with only one wire in it. The change to this is only about 9340 too (=June 2002)
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by rwb »

steve_earwig wrote:...if the relay and wiring are actually categorised as part of the "cooling fan electronic mixer" [then] there's the 3-way grey and the 2-way black with only one wire in it.
Oh yeah :shock:
Honest John wrote:Dozens of fires involving 2002/3 model year 406 HDIs in 2003. Wiring went Multiplex. The control module for the front mounted engine cooling/air-con fan can start burning after being parked for several hours, though has also occurred while being driven. See recalls.

...

13-5-2003: Safety recall for 2002/3 406 HDIs with Multiplex wiring as water may enter the under bonnet cooling fan control module, cause a short circuit and start and engine fire. Modified cooling fan assembly to be fitted.

Current: 407 2.2 HDi 170 & C6 2.7 HDi.
Former: 406 1.9 TD; 406 HDi 90; 407 2.2 160; 307cc 180; 508 HDi 140.
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by steve_earwig »

steve_earwig wrote:There are the 3-way grey and the 2-way black [connectors]...
Wot, I don't get to be sloppy with English now? :(

Honest John speaketh from his bottom, they didn't go multiplex in 2002/3, they were multiplex from June 1999. Anyway, that's exact same unit fitted to my December 2003-built car and I reckon if there was any problem they'd have gone up in smoke by now.
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by madmadmax »

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd19 ... 9cccaf.jpg

this diagram is correct with the numbering correct to

could we arrange this info in to coherent and useful knowledge and put it in the knowledge base as this is sum thing that needs to be kept safe and available

they redesigned the fan units in 02 and that's when they started to burn

the relay is on bm01 (red wire) and 1589(green) in the loom and 14 is the relay
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by steve_earwig »

madmadmax wrote:could we arrange this info in to coherent and useful knowledge and put it in the knowledge base as this is sum thing that needs to be kept safe and available
I don't actually think so, not so it'd be useful to everyone anyway. For a kick off I reckon these diagrams only apply to diesels, when I try to look up petrols I get a few choices:

I was just trying to bring up a diagram for a late 2.2: So RPO 9891,Saloon, rhd, ew12j4, manual, esp, abs...
1 fan(s) 350 W - 90 WAERO without chopper
1 fan(s) 350 W - 90 WAERO with chopper
1 fan(s) 450 W
1 FAN 350W
1 improved 2-speed fan(s)
1 FAN 450W WITH BLADE
1 FAN 350W WITH BLADE
1 1-speed fan(s) 100 W
1 2-speed fan(s) 450 W with chopper
1 2-speed fan(s) 250 W - 70 WAERO
2 FANS , 2 RATES , UPPER
2 FANS , 2 RATES , IMPROVED
Chopper? :shock:

Even on the diesels the RPO dates seem to wander around depending on engine and equipment.

For a DW10 (saloon, manual, no esp :roll: ) this is the first diagram, from the magic RPO 9001 (July 2001 when they went full mux) until RPO 9191 (January 2002):
Image
3 speeds, 3 relays, 2 resistor blocks. I suspect all Pug did was move over control of the fan from the pressostat to the engine ecu.

From RPO 9192 until RPO 9335 (June 2002):
Image
Engine ecu - fan mixer - engine fuse panel. They only fitted this for 6 months? I wonder if this was the dodgy one...

And from RPO 9336 until the end of production:
Image
Fan mixer - engine ecu - engine fuse panel.

As I said, these dates will probably be wrong for a 110 or a 2.2, I'm not even confident they'll be 100% for a 90...
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Re: Radiator fan (2002 HDi)

Post by steve_earwig »

I'm sick of editing that now :frown: I just wanted to add that these dates are indeed complete ballcocks for the 2.0 110 and the 2.2 HDi, the coupe of which never even changed from the 3 relay set up (why-a you keep-a bleedin' a-changing everathing, Frenchie?)

If it aint broke keep fiddling with it until it is :roll:
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