The wonky £1K citron Citroën

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The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by rwb » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:51 pm

Well maybe not quite that bad... but not far off.

Plan A was to just turn up with it at Pugfest because I thought that would be funny, but that didn't come off so it's time to come clean.
Image
Image

The "logic" is that I've always kind of fancied one, and it's an experiment to see if I
can live with a slushmatic.

One might well observe that someone who is incompetent with
spanners has no business owning a C6.

It's not a particularly good example. It doesn't have navigation,
lane departure warning, seat memory, or lounge pack, there are some patches of rust and lacquer peel,
and it's been smoked in, .
But that's not really relevant to the experiment, and anyway the 407 is still my 'proper' car.
In fact it has a lot in common with the 407 and they both come from the Rennes factory.

I'd looked at a few at the lower end of the market and they all had double digit numbers of faults
showing in Diagbox, and some quite scary sh*t too such as rear EGR valve. This one was advertised at £1300
and when the guy saw that I was genuine cearly thought I was his best chance at getting shut of it
and dropped to £1k without me even asking. So: if I have to spend £1500 sorting it out
then I reckon I'll end up with somethings straighter and with better history than spending £2.5k.

It was supplied with an Evans Halshaw receipt for £3.5k :shock:
(I've checked in ServiceBox and all parts are at Citroen list price.)

It was in Oxfordshire near Sonia. I viewed it on the Tuesday on my way home from the office
in Berkshire. The following Thursday Sonia very kindly picked me up from Oxford railway
station and took me to collect it. When we arrived it was already running which
set alarm bells ringing, but in fairness the guy did explain that he'd had to jump start it,
and when I'd viewed it it had dozens of low battery related faults,
and he did say that the battery had been flat, so again no surprise really.

After collecting it we went for breakfast and on the way it dropped its hydraulic fluid, so
no power steering, and its unclear what the suspension is up to.
(It uses "LDS" which is also known as "Total Fluide DA".)

I'd come with a jump starter pack just in case -- which was needed and worked that evening
when leaving the office, but which wouldn't start it the following morning. So I think
I was lucky to get home.

Ordered a new battery (100AH, 830A, £94). No better.
Ordered a starter motor for £140. Fitted for £70 (it took just under 3 hours) and now starting straight up
so went to get it booked into my local independet ex-Citroen tech who is brilliant.

I'd topped up the fluid and then put a large piece of cardboard underneath to catch the drips
(nevertheless I've ordered driveway degreaser) and to see where the drips are. Nothing for three days
and then a torrent. It seems to be the low pressure power steering return, and there are jubilee
clips and what looks like garden hose, so I'm guessing that both ends of that are leaking.
Image
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLndacCxL2Q[/youtube]

So come Monday morning I put another 3L of LDS into it and started it up. A neighbour walked past
giving me a bit of a funny look. Then it wouldn't move. My first thought was the electronic parking brake
but the dash light was going off and I could feel the brake pedal go hard and soft as I worked it, so
it wasn't that. Then I noticed that the dash said 'P' no matter where the gear lever was.
Then I discovered why the funny look from the neighbour: the LDS -- all 3L of it -- was running down the courtyard.
Called my mechanic to explain and he suggested a bracket on the gear linkage and sure enough it was bust.
Image
I suspect
the guy who fitted the starter motor bust it because you have to move the selector cables out of the way, but of course
he wouldn't admit to anything. Called a recovery company who sounded less than enthusiastic about stuck in park
and underneath a bridge into a courtyard.

Fortunately I managed to get grips onto the bracket to hold it for long enough to get it into neutral, but the MFD
was going ballistic demanding the lever be returned to park.
With all the LDS over the courtyard the suspension was as low as it would go and it wouldn't go onto the recovery wagon.
Fortunately, they had another wagon which he went to fetch while the C6 deposited more LDS in the street that
could get it on. Three applications of the degreaser and a lot of vigorous scrubbing
seems to have removed the evidence of my misdemeanour.

Bought another 5L of LDS, 4L of ATF, and a gear lever with cable and that lot arrived on the Friday so hopefully I'll be getting a call to say it's all done. I suspect I'll be getting a call to say it's unfixable.

When it works...

The slushmatic is very smooth to the extent that I lose count of which gear it's in. However, it's very
slow to set off having to wait for it to change down and build pressure in the torque converter.
In fact setting off is quite a rigmarole because you have to have your foot on the brake
in order to release the electronic parking brake.

Annoyingly, in manaul mode the bugger will still change gear if it wants to -- if you're doing it wrong.

Managed to nurse 51.3MPG out of it on the trip computer on my first journey. The 407
would have shown about 65mpg. I'd expect to get a little better with practice.
The throttle is surprisingly sensitive; I thought it would be much more numb
going through the torque converter.

So far in general I'm not as disappointed as I thought I was going to be, in particular about the seats (half leather)
and the driving position (very conventional compared to the 407).
The seat cloth is actually very nice (it has a very deep lush feeling loop pile), and the leather is stitched properly unlike the shitty plastic beading on the 407.
Nevertheless ona cold morning I'll be in the 407 because heated leather. When frozen there is also the difficulty
of opening the door, like on the 406 coupe.

RT3 navigation will run on the small screen, and I've picked up a head unit for £33. The GPS aerial and looms are likely to be difficult to acquire although I suspect that quite a lot is already installed because it's shown on the parts diagram in ServiceBox.

It doesn't feel particularly special compared to the 407, but the seats are better,
the suspension is better (but not radically superior).
I really need more time to get used to it.

And so on to the next problem. It judders both when applying power and when the car is pushing the engine,
but it's OK under light load. I think this is the lockup clutch on the torque converter, but again I need more time to get the feel of it.
Looks like it'll be similar pricing and difficulty as a clutch and DMF on the 407.
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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by Doggy » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:37 pm

Sneaky!

Certainly looks interesting, a lot of car for the money. Hope it doesn't wind up costing you too much.
What engine is it? (Guessing it won't be the same gutless stall-special DW10 I'm starting to wish I'd steered clear of).

Shame I missed Pugfest, would have been interesting to catch up/compare Citroen-inspired shrugs/drown our sorrows....

Whens the next meet?
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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by Welly » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:44 pm

Normally I'd read a new car horror story like that and be like "oh bloody hell" .... "nightmare" ....."sh*t"....etc

But this time, having been shown the choice of Citroen I was all calm and like: "okay"....."right"...."yes I see".... :lol: :lol:

You are a certified nutter, so in my book that deserves a well done mate and keep the stories coming :cheesy:
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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by trem1 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:02 pm

Doggy wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:37 pm
Sneaky!

Certainly looks interesting, a lot of car for the money. Hope it doesn't wind up costing you too much.
What engine is it? (Guessing it won't be the same gutless stall-special DW10 I'm starting to wish I'd steered clear of).

Shame I missed Pugfest, would have been interesting to catch up/compare Citroen-inspired shrugs/drown our sorrows....

Whens the next meet?
Was a good day/turnout, if i could figure out how to add pics i could show you lol. Think next meet will be pugfest 2020 :roll: :roll:


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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by Bailes1992 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:17 pm

I believe the gearbox in this is an Asin Warner unit as fitted to my Volvo. They're not constant slip, as soon as road speed and engine speed 'match' the torque converter locks-up and gives you a direct drive to the wheels as a manual.

I'm not as mad as you, so I'm currently in the market for a Mondeo ST220, fingers crossed I shall have one this weekend. :lol:
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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by rwb » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:55 pm

It's the 2.7 V6 HDi which are known for dropping their coolant from any of: a metal pipe near the front passenger wheel that corrodes, split inlet manifold, split thermostat housing. And there's no level sensor (possible retrofit from a 407, but I noticed yesterday that most 407s don't have the level sensor either).
The other choices are the V6 petrol and the 2.2 HDi bi-turbo. The 2.2 has a cut down version of the suspension, and I already have that engine in my 407, so that's pointless.

I also noticed yesterday that the hydraulic pipe ends for the C6's struts appear to be the same as on the 407's power steering pump.
Pipes are megabucks from Citroen so I anticipate it's going to be important to be able to make replacements. Many of them are flexible hydraulic hose that I recognise from agricultural machinery, but they join onto steel pipe that have nonstandard (as far as I can tell) ends. I reckon that the main part of the trick will be to make good connections between steel and flexible; flare the steel and use an olive?

Here it is, and with a joint on the flexible pipe, so it's possible!
Image

It's done a DPF regen and all that seems in order, and the Evans Halshaw invoice lists a fluid top up. But I've found in the 407 that cruise on at 70mph is best for a regen. So other than regens, with the hydraulics back together I can run it gently to get used to it -- and find out what else it wants.

I believe it is the AW box and not the ZF one. My mechanic, who is a former Citroen tech, and is brilliant and thus far too competent to work for Citroen, says the ZF one is horrible to work with because it has sharp edges and you get cut.

I ought to go pester him to gee him up with it a bit, but I don't want to become that bastard customer for whom everything is always urgent.

So the plan is to get some new oil into the slushmatic and hopefully that'll keep it happy until I can get a new torque converter sorted.
Especially if it's got lots of lock up clutch lining floating round in it.
I expect that saving £250 on a scrap torque converter (£500 new) would be a false economy because that could just as easily be bust?

Which DW10 do you have doggy? Is it a MkII C5?
The 2.0 140 (RHN) in the 508 was a "typical HDi": nothing until 1800 and out of puff at 3000. It felt a lot more like driving my 406 HDi 90 than my 407 170, but it "feels" fast because the torque curve is steeper.

Or should I just be done with all the stress and get myself a bank loan, a baseball cap, and a poverty spec 1-series?
No. :P

Was the last meet we did Cosford?
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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by Doggy » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:22 pm

Vin is VF7RWRHF88L502140 - not sue if that makes it a RWR or a WRH
Characteristics says, "C5 (X7) 5 DOOR ESTATE 2.0 HDi 138 particle emission filter Manual gearbox 6"; Engine: "DIESEL TURBO DW10BTED4 FAP"

Guess I'm spoiled after 10 years/220k miles with well-sorted 2.2's

Cosford was a good while ago - 2010/11?

What about Duxford, if they ever finish the A14?
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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by rwb » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:27 pm

I read that as RHF which I believe is what most 2.0 407s are. Without a DPF in X-Line and Zenith trim levels!

I think it's basically the 2.0 block with the 16 valve head and VNT from the 2.2 406s, but with a Siemens or Delphi injection system. I believe it's the Delphi that doesn't have the intercooler bypass (so one butterfly in the air doser rather than two) but the Siemens does.

Duxford looks do-able; I'd be happy with that.

Some other suggestions:
Maltings near Shrewsbury, although £15 seems a bit steep
National Brewery Centre in Burton upon Trent. £12. If we can get organised then we might be able to do a group tour and beer tasting for £10 each.
Pleaseley Pit mining museum near Mansfield. I see in their news they've hosted meets of other car clubs.
Sywell Aviation Museum near Northampton. Possibility of group tour.
Sir Richard Arkwright's Masson Mills near Alfreton. £7.50.

Current: 407 2.2 HDi 170 & C6 2.7 HDi.
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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by Doggy » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:43 am

Yes, you're right. RHF Euro5 spec. Delphi fuel system.
It's too new to pass an MOT without a dpf and I'm not prepared to run without one & refit for MOT's as I hear some are doing. :roll:
HDI Tuning offer a DIY online remap to 165bhp / 370Nm for £99, needs a Kess V2 OBD programmer, (£55 - 60 on fleabay).
Not sure it's worth the bother < 30bhp increase but maybe expanding the useful rev range would make a worthwhile difference?
It's got a bit of a misfire in light throttle/low revs and seems to stall far too easily, making me think all is not well with the injection system but TBH it's not even close to my to-do list.
Just to add to the fun, looks like my RT4/5 is dying - keeps beeping as if it's not coded to the car, (but occasionally behaves) and randomly decides to ignore the parking sensors when it feels like it. (Oui, c'est normale).

All of those potential venues would work for me, some are virtually on the doorstep but maybe a long way for others. I'm going to be away for the last 10 days of August and probably the last 3 weeks of September, but any other time should work.

I wonder how may others would be interested?
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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by trem1 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:26 am

yea i'm up for a meet but as far north as possible for me. Doggy that engine is the same as mine and the misfire will be egr related, just blank it, remap wise they normally map to around 180 so 165 sounds low to me.


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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by Doggy » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:54 am

Thanks for the tip, may explain disappointing mpg too.
I'll try to get my finger out and sort it.
Towbar fitting fills today's agenda.

Anyone else for a meet, possibly "Oop north"?
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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by trem1 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:04 am

euro 5 need blanking plate with a hole in or it puts eml light on.


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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by Bailes1992 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:13 pm

Assuming the gearbox is the Aisin Warner type then I would definitely look at flushing the gearbox oil a good few times to see if it cures any abnormalities.

Aisin Warner AW-1 is the fluid specified by Aisin Warner although I believe PSA have their own specification. AW-1 is also known as JWS 3324 and Toyota WS. Makes finding fluid much easier!

Cheapest option at the moment is Comma MVATF Plus which I've just used to change out my Volvo. Cost me £23 for 5 litres with my trade card in halfords. It's a universal ATF but is suitable for AW-1/JWS 3324 and Toyota WS applications.
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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by rwb » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:35 pm

The docs from ServiceBox available via c6owners.org state JSW3309 so its having this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252154965984

What I've read suggests that it has a 9L capacity but only 4L is drainable beause the rest is in the torque converter.

Ideally, yes, I need to find a way of doing it so that it can be done more freqently. I'm thinking of using a sucker, measuring, and replacing the same amount.

Eric: +1 on the EGR.
Alex has deFAPped his 2.2 170 and it passes the MOT on the default smoke limit (but not on the sticker limit). For comparison mine is standard, the plate is 0.53, and my last test was 0.24.

I think we already spoke about hard drive replacement in RT4/5.

Re-reading, I quite fancy the Burton brewery group tour...

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Re: The wonky £1K citron Citroën

Post by rwb » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:25 pm

Been to see Mechanic yesterday and he says he's scheduled it for Tuesday. He's an expert in the folding hard tops and has been inundated since we had some warm weather, and I guess that's nicer work.

I'm anticipating being asked to find a replacement pipe, but ServiceBox doesn't seem to list one so I'm going to have to convince him to make one. So that's what I shall be researching this weekend.

MOT is due on 7th August so that can be done from Monday, so that's now on the list.

And thus the latest Plan A is to be able to do 300 miles in in on Thrusday...

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