Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

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PeterN
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by PeterN » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:32 am

The lift pump disintegrating was quite common on early 406 Hdi's as mentioned but I have never had a problem with mine, I think by the time they get as old as I can afford they have sorted most of the problems out. :wink:

In any case I have two sets of spare injectors and two pumps in stock - wonderful running these obsolete cars. 8)

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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by caprixpack » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:16 pm

Regarding the sealed for life gearboxes, our passats gearbox is sealed for life. VWs idea of life is around 130000 miles, then they start whining and dying. And when it does go vw say it's at the end of its life. But changing the oil every say 50k and the boxes live on. You need a special socket to do it but it makes a world of difference, I did ours at 115000 miles and it was like having a new gearbox.
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by rwb » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:14 pm

The fuel filter on my 407 2.2 HDi is a sealed unit that costs about £50.

Jasper5 changed it for me in 2013.

Since then it had done about 80k which is twice the service interval.

I started to get fuel pressure faults, typically when accelerating hard, e.g., off lights or a sliproad. I.e., when demand suddenly increased a lot after a period of low flow.

Changing the fuel filter sorted it.

It only ever has Tesco diesel, and I fill it full when the fuel light comes on.

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Bailes1992
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by Bailes1992 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:15 am

Back in 2012 I got my Mondeo serviced by a mechanic who was a 'family friend' ex-retired mechanic kind of guy. I gave him a new fuel filter in the parts I supplied him, a new Mann filter which cost me £30.

About 6 weeks later the car started bogging down on acceleration, I popped open the fuel filter housing to see a 'Ford' fuel filter, dated 02/2010 (three months before it's last major service) and blocked up quite nicely. :evil: That filter had done 41,000miles before it blocked up. I generally only used BP Ultimate or Shell V-Power in the Mondeo, but god knows what had been used before I bought it as it was an ex-fleet car.

The last 3 years I've spent a ridiculous amount of time looking into oils as I had so many issues with my Focus dumping oil into the diesel and watering it down to a 20 weight! :roll: There's a forum called Bob Is The Oil Guy which is a great resource for such things.

What I have learned is that oils manufacturers recommend are always a compromise between engine longevity, fuel economy and emissions. People always say that to protect your engine you should use what the manufacturer recommends, that's not the case.

In America car manufacturers have CAFE regulations, this is where their cars must hit certain targets or the manufacturer pays fines. As a result America has had *w20 oils for a long time, where as here in the UK they are only just starting to surface. There is a whole load of evidence out there that shows if you took two identical engines, run one on a 40 or 50 weight oil and another on a 20 and did the same driving in both the engine running the 20 weight oil will have significantly more measurable wear after 200,000miles than the engine running a 40 or 50 weight oil. That said there are engines that have run on 20 weight oils and done 500k in America but these are engines that are few and far between, have had very light driving and lots of regular oil changes. Toyota has just started specifying 0w16 oils for it's hybrids, as long as the engine lives to 150-200k the manufacturer is happy and they've got another 0.5mpg out of it.

The another argument I've seen is people who say engine tolerances are getting tighter. Engine tolerances haven't changed since the 70's! Engine tolerances today are still much much bigger than the minimum oil film thickness of a *w60 oil.

The same is said about reduced SAPS oils. If you ran three identical engines on a 0w30 oil, one an A3/B4(Full SAPS), another a C3 (mid-saps) and another a C4 (low-saps) you will see after 200k a measurable difference in wear. The A3/B4 oil being the least worn, C3 slightly more worn and the C2 worn more again.

If manufacturers cared just about engine protection we would all be running *w40/*w50 oils loaded with loads of zinc and phosphorus.
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Bailes1992
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by Bailes1992 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:26 am

My plan there was to explain that manufacturers look at the cost of ownership over the reasonable lifetime of the vehicle. Thus most manufacturers are happy their gearbox oil will last in one shape or for 10 years or 150k, by which time it's probably on it's way to the scrap yard. But I went off on a rant about oil. :lol:

Those of us who like to maintain our cars properly and go above and beyond what the manufacturer recommends are the exception.

I've currently fallen out with my local Renault dealer. Renault have back-specc'd the Duster for a 5w30 C4 'low-SAPS' oil. I asked if I could supply a 5w40 C3 'mid-saps' oil as this is what the car was originally specified for and will offer better protection. I was told by my Renault dealer that if Renault parts weren't used and it wasn't serviced at a Renault dealer my warranty on the car was void and therefore they wouldn't use my oil. :roll:
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by frog » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:36 am

That filter had done 41,000miles before it blocked up
That seems really too quick :? . For the 406 HDI the official replacement interval is 60000 km (38000 miles).

I bought my 406 HDI at 277000 km (174000 miles) and replaced the fuel filter at 390000 km (244000 miles). Haven't replaced it since then, now at 530000 km (331000 miles). I'm considering to never replace it again.

I change oil every year, which boils down to every 65000 km (41000 miles). I always use the same 5w40 C3 grade oil. I did a motorflush at one of the changes, but i'm not sure it made any difference.

I have a daily commute of in total 220 km (135 mile), so the driving is primarily long stretch highway. My speed is fixed at 140 km/h (85 miles), wherever possible :wink:
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

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Bailes1992
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by Bailes1992 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:52 am

frog wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:36 am
That filter had done 41,000miles before it blocked up
That seems really too quick :? . For the 406 HDI the official replacement interval is 60000 km (38000 miles).

I bought my 406 HDI at 277000 km (174000 miles) and replaced the fuel filter at 390000 km (244000 miles). Haven't replaced it since then, now at 530000 km (331000 miles). I'm considering to never replace it again.

I change oil every year, which boils down to every 65000 km (41000 miles). I always use the same 5w40 C3 grade oil. I did a motorflush at one of the changes, but i'm not sure it made any difference.

I have a daily commute of in total 220 km (135 mile), so the driving is primarily long stretch highway. My speed is fixed at 140 km/h (85 miles), wherever possible :wink:
The Ford interval is 37,500miles or 3 years. I just had the 3rd service on my company Focus and the oil fuel filter was absolutely filthy after 38,000miles.

41k is really pushing an oil, especially what will be a Group 3 super hydro-cracked mineral oil and not a true synthetic. That said, you're now on 331k so it can't be doing a great deal of harm. I personally would be looking to use Castrol Edge 0w40 A3/B4 is it's a proper group 4 Polyalphaolefin synthetic.

I'd love to have a nose under the rocker cover/sump and see what the engine looks like I must admit, as well as cutting the oil filter open after that mileage. I'd place good money on it being blocked, potentially torn or have the pressure relief valve open. An oil analysis would also be interesting to see! :supafrisk:
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by trufflehunt » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:54 pm

On older cars, I go the easier route. I note what is the factory recommended oil/grades. Check with other owners to see if there is a big consensus about any particular oil now in common use for that car. And change the oil more often than the factory service interval. It's hardly a hard or time-consuming job.

I live in a rural small town. I haven't been near a main dealer for repairs or servicing for years. Their hourly rates are well beyond me.
So when I arrived here, when I needed this or that done, or say, the MOT ...., I'd ask my neighbours. I' ask them what they had had done. You hear the little stories, and after a while I homed in on a local place that didn't **** me about, didn't invent costs, and were basically trustworthy.

If I had a family 'friend' who couldn't be arsed to change something when asked to do so, and I'd supplied the part...., I'd be a lot more annoyed about that than whether an oil was going to last nnn thousand miles.
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Bailes1992
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by Bailes1992 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 pm

Frog, out of curiosity does your 406 use any oil? It's amazing that the engine has managed 300k+ with oil that would have severely depleted additives after 20k, let alone 40k! If you're topping it up every now and again I could sort-of see it working. I know there are members on the bob is the oil guy forum who's cars use a litre every few thousand miles so they just keep it topped up and replace the oil filter when required.
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by Bailes1992 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:28 pm

trufflehunt wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:54 pm
If I had a family 'friend' who couldn't be arsed to change something when asked to do so, and I'd supplied the part...., I'd be a lot more annoyed about that than whether an oil was going to last nnn thousand miles.
I'm really fussy about who works on my cars. As I've fallen out with Renault I will use a trusted independent, after this year the car is out of warranty so I will probably do it myself. As we have a little-un on the way the car will be kept until it dies as it will no doubt get absolutely battered over the next 10 years.

Modern synthetics are great, however what I would use would depend on my mileage. If I did 12k a year I would probably use a mineral heavy duty diesel engine oil and change it every 6k. If I was doing 20k a year I would look at using a fully synthetic A3/B4 oil and change it twice a year/10k. If I was doing over 20k a year I would look into bypass filtration systems, use a synthetic and look to change the oil every 25k regardless of age and replace the bypass filter every 50k.
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by frog » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:14 am

Bailes1992 wrote:Frog, out of curiosity does your 406 use any oil?
Last year i topped up with about 0,5 litre halfway the year. At the end of the year the level was low again but then of course i replaced all the oil.
Bailes1992 wrote:as well as cutting the oil filter open after that mileage
Well, of course i also replace the oil filter together with the oil change. Shall I send the next one to you so that you can analyse? You'll have to wait a bit though, it will be coming december :cheesy:

Of course, the oil that pours out is black, but it is black already after 1000 miles. Nothing that makes me worry.
Bailes1992 wrote:I personally would be looking to use Castrol Edge 0w40 A3/B4
I did some internet research on which oil to use; to be honest i find the amount of (non)information baffling. I ended up here which says that "C" rated oil (as opposed to A/B ?) is "catalyst compatible" because it is lower in sulfur and fosfor and has a lower "sulfate ash number". Whatever. I have the faintest idea what all this means. It just seemed a good idea to have "catalyst compatible" oil.

It also states: "Within the "C" group there are then two gradations: C1 and C2 have a relatively low viscosity to limit the fuel consumption when driving short journeys, C3 and C4. Are more focused on wear protection." So C3 seemed perfect for my situation, given my long daily commute.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

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Bailes1992
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by Bailes1992 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:19 pm

'C' rated oils minimise the amount of additives in the oil such as Zinc. They're for DPF's to minimise clogging and modern 3 way catalysts.

Your HDI won't see any advantage to using one and it could be said an A3/B4 oil would offer you more protection.

I would change the oil filter every 10k and top the oil up. At least you would see a little fresh oil going in to top-up the additives.
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by jasper5 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:25 pm

Bailes1992 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:26 am
My plan there was to explain that manufacturers look at the cost of ownership over the reasonable lifetime of the vehicle. Thus most manufacturers are happy their gearbox oil will last in one shape or for 10 years or 150k, by which time it's probably on it's way to the scrap yard. But I went off on a rant about oil. :lol:

Those of us who like to maintain our cars properly and go above and beyond what the manufacturer recommends are the exception.

I've currently fallen out with my local Renault dealer. Renault have back-specc'd the Duster for a 5w30 C4 'low-SAPS' oil. I asked if I could supply a 5w40 C3 'mid-saps' oil as this is what the car was originally specified for and will offer better protection. I was told by my Renault dealer that if Renault parts weren't used and it wasn't serviced at a Renault dealer my warranty on the car was void and therefore they wouldn't use my oil. :roll:

Your Renault dealer is breaking the law by saying if the car isn't serviced at a Renault dealer then your warranty is void!

The "Block Exemption Rule" states that as long as the vehicle is serviced in accordance with manufacturers specifications then any garage can service a car that is under warranty.....I do this regular and have never had a problem, except with the local Honda dealer, until it was pointed out to them about Block Exemption!

Regarding oil, I've recently serviced a one year old Suzuki Jimny (still under warranty) and had to fit 0w20 oil...that's the first time I've come across this.

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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by Bailes1992 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:11 pm

jasper5 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:25 pm
Bailes1992 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:26 am
My plan there was to explain that manufacturers look at the cost of ownership over the reasonable lifetime of the vehicle. Thus most manufacturers are happy their gearbox oil will last in one shape or for 10 years or 150k, by which time it's probably on it's way to the scrap yard. But I went off on a rant about oil. :lol:

Those of us who like to maintain our cars properly and go above and beyond what the manufacturer recommends are the exception.

I've currently fallen out with my local Renault dealer. Renault have back-specc'd the Duster for a 5w30 C4 'low-SAPS' oil. I asked if I could supply a 5w40 C3 'mid-saps' oil as this is what the car was originally specified for and will offer better protection. I was told by my Renault dealer that if Renault parts weren't used and it wasn't serviced at a Renault dealer my warranty on the car was void and therefore they wouldn't use my oil. :roll:

Your Renault dealer is breaking the law by saying if the car isn't serviced at a Renault dealer then your warranty is void!

The "Block Exemption Rule" states that as long as the vehicle is serviced in accordance with manufacturers specifications then any garage can service a car that is under warranty.....I do this regular and have never had a problem, except with the local Honda dealer, until it was pointed out to them about Block Exemption!

Regarding oil, I've recently serviced a one year old Suzuki Jimny (still under warranty) and had to fit 0w20 oil...that's the first time I've come across this.

I know about the rule which is why I fell out with the dealer. I don't intend to carry on using a dealer that uses such scaremongering tactics!

If you look at the Jimny's manual it states you can use a 0w20, 5w30, 5w40, 10w40 or 15w40 if it meets API SN. However, 0W20 should be used for best fuel economy and starting. I use Castrol Edge 0w30 A5/B5 in my Mothers, it's a very thin 30 weight with lots of anti-wear additives so I see it as a good compromise.

However, I've realised with the cars I service I can get away with one engine oil for all, so from now on all the cars I service will have Fuchs GT1 XTL 5w40. It's BMW LL04 approved for the 320d, it meets API SN for the Jimny, it meets ACEA C3 for the Duster and the Land Rover asks for a specification which is long obsolete and the oil in question will far exceed.
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Re: Fuel filter conspiracy theorist

Post by frog » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:16 am

Bailes1992 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:19 pm
Your HDI won't see any advantage to using one and it could be said an A3/B4 oil would offer you more protection.
Thanks for the advice, i will consider it.

I must say that of the specific brand and type of oil i use, the C3 is a little cheaper than the A3/B4 variant. And the A3/B4 is marked "BMW Longlife-01" whereas the C3 is marked "BMW Longlife 04". But that higher number is probably related with the fact its meant for newer cars which have a DPF fitted, i.e. the lower number is not necessarily worse.
Bailes1992 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:19 pm
I would change the oil filter every 10k and top the oil up.
Thanks again, but when i have the car in the DIY garage to change the oil filter then it is a small thing to change the oil as well. This is not about saving a few euro's, its about not having to go to the garage three times a year (that would be four to five times if i count the visits for the wifes "go-kart" as well). The garage owner would get pretty sick of me :wink:
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

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