Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Talk about the 406's electrical system, what wires do what, how to add extra functionality, etc.

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arber333
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Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 » Wed May 09, 2018 10:14 am

Hi All!

I have bought 406C 3.0 V6 2001. That is ES9 J4S engine yes? Well it came with broken tranny and some misfire DTCs. I have driven some but now it is not possible. Mind you engine is still running but car doesnt move since transmission has gone into lockdown. It would cause €€€ to replace oil and rectify errors there!
I like the car very much and i would like to put electric motor instead of current V6. I have done EVs before and is nothing hard. Car will run and move.
I have one Nissan Leaf motor and inverter that would fit inside engine bay. Leaf motor comes with gearbox and driveshafts to complete drivetrain. I wouldnt need auto transmission that way. Also i would fit Leaf AC compressor to have use stock AC unit.
The problem i am facing now is that Peugeot still uses their proprietary VAN or K bus instead of CAN bus. And i cant dechypher it to fool software into thinking engine is running. I tried to decypher it with M2 Macchina and other CAN loggers but they dont see the traffic because they are not CAN protocol.
So i would have to go the hard way and fake each signal that comes from engine. That will require timing (scope) and precise wiring diagram for that engine, so i dont miss any sensors.

Do any of you have access to 3.0 V6 wiring schematics? I would need pages for the engine management. I only have the plain 406 ones and they have different engines.

tnx for your help. I intend to post here my progress.

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mjb
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by mjb » Wed May 09, 2018 1:38 pm

Wow that's a project and a half!

I've been away from pugs for a long time now, but iirc VAN used a really weird baud rate, so you won't find anything off the shelf that'll speak it. If you've got a decent digital scope, you should be able to read the bus and possibly work out what you need to fake the engine ecu, but I suspect faking the sensors would indeed be easier.

Another option would be to strip all the electrics and use an aftermarket (racing) instrument cluster

The schematics used to be behind a paywall at http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com but I don't know if that's still the case
<steve_earwig> I think this forum is more about keeping our cars going with minimal outlay than giving our cars more reason to go bang

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Bailes1992
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by Bailes1992 » Wed May 09, 2018 4:22 pm

How about replacing the wiring with one from a D8 without the VAN?
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arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 » Thu May 10, 2018 6:14 am

Yes, i dont see the problem with interior and instrument cluster. However if i would replace wiring and ECU i would have to replace the instrument cluster also because immobiliser transponder is in there. So better to simulate running engine. I would like to make a "fake engine" Arduino Due for example. Since signals are general analog voltage and pulses i think i can do this. Even knock sensors wont be a problem i think. I just have to time/slave them to some signal that is ever present when engine is running. I think i will slave everything to CAM shaft signal.

But! To figure all sensors that are used for this engine i would need wiring schematic for ES9 J4S. Does anyone have that?
Also do any of you know of a good method how to spy on the wire without damaging it much? I dont like to put holes in isolation, corosion...

I read somewhere that my engine has multiplexed wiring. Does that mean different signals are running on the same wire? Where to get data on that?

tnx

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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by frog » Fri May 11, 2018 8:00 am

arber333 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:14 am
But! To figure all sensors that are used for this engine i would need wiring schematic for ES9 J4S. Does anyone have that?
There are the "SEDRE" disks. I have them, but the're a bit too large to post here as an attachment :wink:
arber333 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:14 am
Also do any of you know of a good method how to spy on the wire without damaging it much? I dont like to put holes in isolation, corosion...
Who cares about a tiny hole in a wire if you just removed the complete drive train?? :shock: You might be able to stick a small needle or wire clamp in the back of a plug, where the metal of the crimp connector can be reached.
arber333 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:14 am
I read somewhere that my engine has multiplexed wiring. Does that mean different signals are running on the same wire? Where to get data on that?
Yes, some signaling is done via a "protocol", like CAN or VAN. Most (if not all) sensors that feed into the ECU (engine control unit) are analog, though. But i think you might as well ditch the complete ECU, as well as all other electronics, since you're completely re-inventing the car here.
mjb wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 1:38 pm
I've been away from pugs for a long time now, but iirc VAN used a really weird baud rate, so you won't find anything off the shelf that'll speak it.
It can be done, there are some people out there who hacked together a VAN bus reader on an Arduino (or alike). It is not so much the baud rate that is weird, it is the "Manchester" bit encoding that it uses: after every four bits, a fifth bit is stuffed which is always the inverse of the previous bit. This makes it a "self-clocking signal". VAN bus offered some pretty nice advantages, downside being that the rest of the world uses CAN which has become the de-facto standard.

I collected some resources on the internet; could send you a zip file (~14 MBytes) if you like. I never made an Arduino VAN bus reader myself, but if i had a bit more time, this would certainly be one of my "hobby" projects :D

I admire your courage. But as said this will be "a project and a half" :D. You really need to be a happy hacker, not afraid to dive deep into all the little bits and bytes involved.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

stevewalsh
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by stevewalsh » Fri May 11, 2018 9:17 am

Some of you guys are far to clever. You make the rest of us look like numptys..

frog
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by frog » Fri May 11, 2018 9:58 am

stevewalsh wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 9:17 am
Some of you guys are far to clever. You make the rest of us look like numptys..
"clever" is not the word. More like "autistic obsession" combined with "too much spare time" :wink:
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

PeterN
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by PeterN » Fri May 11, 2018 10:03 am

Wow! What a project, I have done a fair few diesel conversions in my time but RWD and prior to engine electronics. To me they would be much easier than this one and I was an electronics engineer for 50 years but that was before digital although it was just coming into TVs before I retired, I'm afraid I don't understand it anymore. I could probably manage the mechanical work but as for the electronics I'm past my sell by date.

Peter

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:37 am

It is really not that much knowledge in advance as it is a learning curve. Right now i am in the level section :shock: working on converting Ampera inverter to work with my LEAF motor. https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/
I need those multiple inverters to also run AC compressor etc...
Now evereything works just fine.... at 50Vdc. At 300Vdc + i get all sorts of EMI switching noise in control circuit. I am first battling that! Now that is some black magic...
Later i will dissassemble the engine and transmission.
It is really simple idea. Just take engine - transmission out and put Leaf motor with gearbox in. I still need one DCDC converter instead of alternator, Astra G steering pump and one Hella UP28 / UP30 brake vacuum pump since motor does not breathe... Maybe Prius AC compressor since cabin is small. Oh yes and battery of course, whatever it is $$$.
Everything else is simulation of sensors to keep the dash happy. It is not like immobiliser could stop electric motor from turning. Its message can be annoying though.

So i would like to ask here how to best prevent starter motor from starting the engine? Can i just remove fuse no. 18? I would like to have the rest of car working, so i can bring 14V on alternator output and try internal systems :). If they are connected to alternator pulse only i can just remove motor and paint the warning lights on the dash :lol:!!!

A

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:47 pm

frog wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:00 am

Yes, some signaling is done via a "protocol", like CAN or VAN. Most (if not all) sensors that feed into the ECU (engine control unit) are analog, though. But i think you might as well ditch the complete ECU, as well as all other electronics, since you're completely re-inventing the car here.

I collected some resources on the internet; could send you a zip file (~14 MBytes) if you like. I never made an Arduino VAN bus reader myself, but if i had a bit more time, this would certainly be one of my "hobby" projects :D
Yeah.... i would like to have dash working at least to fake engine free running.

But you got me thinking... If i can get automatic AC and ventilation to run without engine on i would just remove dash and use only front panel with my setup. Where does 406C automatic get its speedo signal? From ABS or transmission?
I can also make something like this :) https://www.instructables.com/id/LED-Speedometer/

If you still have files it doesnt hurt if i learn something new :). Can you send them to arber333_at_gmail?

tnx

Arber

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Doggy
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by Doggy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:19 am

On my 2003 2.2 HDi the speed signal comes from the ABS sensors, BUT the signal from the final drive is used by the Satnav and the BSI for detecting the threshold for auto door locking, auto wipers, (swap to intermittent at standstill), increased idle speed etc.

It doesn't have to make sense. :roll:

Fascinating project you've got there. Wouldn't you need something more powerful than the Leaf motor for a car that size?
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:36 am

Hah! Certainly, last year i saw here what a Leaf motor can do however.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1407072

It seems 80kW only applies to inverter, motor itself is much more powerfull. Maybe 150kW nominal?
This years Nissan Leaf uses the same motor with upgraded inverter to offer 115kW! Where it ends i dont know but it is good marketing for Nissan.

Thanks for the info. If i only need ABS for dials to show speed i am in the clear towards DMV. Now sensor from final gear i will use to send driveshaft RPM or its equivalent. I can make a toothed wheel with final drive ratio and fasten it to driveshaft :).

What about CAM and motor shaft sensors? Probably i need also knock sensors? Maybe it would be a better idea to simply replicate an RPM function in Arduino Due and send signals according to single timer.

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:37 am

Anyone knows how to quickly disable engine starter without pulling starting fuse? I would like to test if cabin fan works with 14V from outside PSU to electrical without actually starting the engine. In wiring i saw starter fuse is routing power to fan also. If i remove it i also loose the fan.

When i take the engine out i will have to provide 14VDC power to car from another source. That will be DCDC converter from 380Vdc to 14Vdc.
I would like to test this before i start to take the car apart.

tnx

frog
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by frog » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:04 am

You'd have to simulate "engine running" condition.

I have never seemed to find a quick way of doing this. It would be very useful to be able to do this, because after 30 minutes the BSI computer goes into "Economy mode", and the only way to get out of it is to actually start the engine. 30 minutes is too short for my usual "car hacking" sessions... :wink:
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

arber333
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Posts: 10
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 10:02 am

Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:08 am

frog wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:04 am
You'd have to simulate "engine running" condition.

I have never seemed to find a quick way of doing this. It would be very useful to be able to do this, because after 30 minutes the BSI computer goes into "Economy mode", and the only way to get out of it is to actually start the engine. 30 minutes is too short for my usual "car hacking" sessions... :wink:
Hi tnx.

But are you sure it goes into economy mode because time delay or just because battery went down on volts? I tried with mine and it goes into eco after 10min and battery is depleted with 12.2V! My theory is if i supply 14V constantly it will not go into ECO, why would it? Heh, will offer proof today in the evening as i leave it on with 14V running on 20A PSU.

A

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