Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Talk about the 406's electrical system, what wires do what, how to add extra functionality, etc.

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frog
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Location: Netherlands

Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by frog »

arber333 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:35 am
To be honest I prepared and marked the wires so i can quickly pull them out and fit oil sensor rod somewhere in the car.What will be next? Fuel-air butterfly position sensor? Air mixture sensor...
I think you might have to connect all existing sensors, or provide a simulator for them. For static or very slowly changing values like (oil, water, air) temperature etc. this is usually quite simple, you simply put in a resistor, or keep the existing sensor in place. For pulse-train sensors like engine speed you need a real simulator. I think there is only one: engine speed (crank sensor), and you already have a simulator for it, not? Vehicle speed sensor comes from ABS (as far as I can see); you should already have it. Suitable simulator for lamblda sensors and mass air flow (MAF) sensor could be tricky....

Also the engine ECU is driving various solenoid valves (e.g. canister). If any solenoid is not connected, there will be a fault stored (not sure if engine malfunction light will come on).

Or you remove engine malfunction light from your dashboard, or just live with it (and the warnings on the MFD) :D
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 »

frog wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:02 am
arber333 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:35 am
To be honest I prepared and marked the wires so i can quickly pull them out and fit oil sensor rod somewhere in the car.What will be next? Fuel-air butterfly position sensor? Air mixture sensor...
I think you might have to connect all existing sensors, or provide a simulator for them. For static or very slowly changing values like (oil, water, air) temperature etc. this is usually quite simple, you simply put in a resistor, or keep the existing sensor in place. For pulse-train sensors like engine speed you need a real simulator. I think there is only one: engine speed (crank sensor), and you already have a simulator for it, not? Vehicle speed sensor comes from ABS (as far as I can see); you should already have it. Suitable simulator for lamblda sensors and mass air flow (MAF) sensor could be tricky....

Also the engine ECU is driving various solenoid valves (e.g. canister). If any solenoid is not connected, there will be a fault stored (not sure if engine malfunction light will come on).

Or you remove engine malfunction light from your dashboard, or just live with it (and the warnings on the MFD) :D
Thanks! I see from documents you provided that even nonexisting ATX should provide some resistances for solenoids, just so that they look alive and well. Since i use engine RPM of 800RPM i hope ATX will not change its request for signals much.
Can you tell me if system needs accurate position of air valve (butterfly valve)? Couldnt i just simulate it?

I am now dealing with battery BMS and serial LCD. I need to connect the battery and prepare space for BMS and its subsystems so charger will react appropriately.

I now got the bearing retainer and put it on the bearing mount. Now everything is fixed and i can go and test the car one more time. Hope now i have eliminated vibration in driveshafts.

I also get my modeled PCBs for RPM and speedo. This way it will look more professional and i can hide it in some corner 8) .

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 »

Well i guess throttle sensor was not the main culprit for "engine overheat" error.

How do i know that? Well i managed to connect throttle sensor and oil temp probe. Now after a longer time of "motor running" i still get "engine overheat" warning and STOP sign on the dash. At first glance it looks like a missing temp sensor. But when i try and follow what happens with sensors i see engine coolant temperature dial slowly rise from its corner up to 70deg! When it comes to about 1/3 warning happens and cooling fans start to blow at full speed.
I dont understand the logic behind this. I have a legitimate temp sensor connected to BSM on previous lines. I connected that directly to calm down BSM and also to have indicator for coolant temperature. I really didnt expect for the needle to move by itself.

But this happens only if i simulate engine RPM with my arduino. Any ideas? Are there more temp sensors?

EDIT: I found in transmission training manual that one can use like 400ohm testing connection to test fan deploying function of transmission. Maybe that is happening because i dont have any ohm value connected. I will try to show it 1Kohm and see what happens.
Maybe i will be able to use this logic to manualy deploy fans at the time of my choosing.

steve_earwig
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by steve_earwig »

This is all still witchcraft to me :supafrisk: So I'm thinking the BSI doesn't have an automatic gearbox set of warnings, so uses the engine coolant ones instead: 70 degrees is hardly hot (90 would be normal), never mind an excuse to put the fans on full blast :?
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007

2004 D9 2.0 HDi 110 Estate lhd VF38ERHZF81657352 - sold but being very well looked after.
1991 Yamaha TDM850 - pretending to be 425cc single :frown:
2008 Toyota Recall4 2.0 VVTI ATM LHD JTMBH31V90D007261 - flimsy piece of crap.
1953 Matchless G3LS - It's alive!!

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 »

steve_earwig wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:47 pm
This is all still witchcraft to me :supafrisk: So I'm thinking the BSI doesn't have an automatic gearbox set of warnings, so uses the engine coolant ones instead: 70 degrees is hardly hot (90 would be normal), never mind an excuse to put the fans on full blast :?
All would be good and i would agree with my car its just that big red sign STOP is accompanying the fans on the dash. So i want to have some more control over its appearance.

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 »

Damn... didnt work! I connected 1K resistor to KOSTAL connector pins 4 and 9 where thermistor supposed to be. But the same thing happened.
I will check i actually have coolant thermistor connected, DOH!

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 »

Higher RPM at idle dont have any effect...
Adding ATX temp resistance neither...

But i did found a reference in french Bosch ME7 document to both air and coolant temperature. I have took my air box apart and i cant find the cable connection for the air temp sensor. And sure enough it is NTC. Which means if i disconnect it it will show MAX value of 150deg!!! I am sure any engine control will react to that!

Can anyone with 3.0L V6 engine check where the air temp probe is located and to which connector its wires lead to? I have cut my wires and marked significant connectors but i havent stopped at the air probe. Usually it is connected to the air filter box. I have a feeling wires go to butterfly valve sensor. I need to know to which larger connector does this sensor connect to and i can exploit those wires... They are only two!

EDIT: i managed to find the wires. I connected one 2K5 resistor (20deg) across them and tried to run the car. Again i got STOP warning and boosting fans. But this time coolant temperature stayed low. What more could there be inside temperature logic?

EDIT 2: I think i need to put oil temp/quantity sensor into oil. Does anyone know how those sensors work? I see 1K5 ohm thermistor value with 40deg water. But there is another sensor that only shows 11R and doesnt change with temperature. This must be oil quantity sensor. Only one of its sensors is connected to ECU, others connect it to BSI where fan ON command originates. https://rrr.lt/en/used-part/dev8484-963 ... vel-sensor
Is there any clue how would i simulate that?

tnx

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 »

Damn...
I found some more explanation in another document about a thermocouple on the engine block!

In Bosch ME7.4.4 i found this:
The ECU is responsible for controlling the "coolant temperature warning" LED when the temperature reaches a critical level (risk of damaging the engine).
To perform this function, a coolant temperature thermocontact is used. This is mounted directly into the engine block as it can be more reactive in the event of loss of coolant.
The thermocontact is wired in parallel to the coolant temperature sensor. It therefore does not disturb the signal when it is open and forces the signal to earth when it is active simulating the presence of an excessive temperature at the ECU terminals.
Contact closing temperature: 118 °  2.

I dont have my engine block with me anymore. I took all sensors that i thought are relevant and i scrapped it. Now it is too late.
Can anyone measure or tell me the value of this sensor for 406 V6? I cant seem to find it in schematic. Is this just a paralell value across NTC coolant thermistor?

Hm... i could just use correct value and i am done. But i need to know what the value is!

frog
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by frog »

arber333 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:22 am
Damn...
I found some more explanation in another document about a thermocouple on the engine block!

In Bosch ME7.4.4 i found this:
The ECU is responsible for controlling the "coolant temperature warning" LED when the temperature reaches a critical level (risk of damaging the engine).
To perform this function, a coolant temperature thermocontact is used. This is mounted directly into the engine block as it can be more reactive in the event of loss of coolant.
The thermocontact is wired in parallel to the coolant temperature sensor. It therefore does not disturb the signal when it is open and forces the signal to earth when it is active simulating the presence of an excessive temperature at the ECU terminals.
Contact closing temperature: 118 °  2.

I dont have my engine block with me anymore. I took all sensors that i thought are relevant and i scrapped it. Now it is too late.
Can anyone measure or tell me the value of this sensor for 406 V6? I cant seem to find it in schematic. Is this just a paralell value across NTC coolant thermistor?

Hm... i could just use correct value and i am done. But i need to know what the value is!
Ah! You did not connect a coolant temperature sensor? That would explain!

In "bosch_motronic_me7_4_6_es9j4_institut_citroen.pdf", there is a table on page 66. 20 °C is 6245 Ohm, 90 °C is 459 Ohm. So you could use any value in between.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

arber333
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Posts: 41
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 10:02 am

Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 »

OK, i will inspect this sensor again. Just in case i will get another such sensor, connect that one and apply some heat to it so i can see the result. Then i can use 6K8 resistor in paralell with sensor to have some 20deg reaction from system. Just in case if system wants a twitch from this sensor.

arber333
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by arber333 »

DOH!

Peugeot obviously has dry coolant protection. When i started the process and used a hot air gun on the sensor there wouldnt be an alarm as long as the sensor would remain above 70deg!

Additionaly i left the sensor to cool down and there was a reaction after a long time. So i guess if the sensor would be at its minimum BSM would start a countdown just in case this would be a loss of coolant situation.

Problem solved. I just need to put a 6K8 resistor in paralell to get an innitial response. Then i will be good. Also sensor gauge will display 30deg more but i can correct the scale.

I just need to dissassemble the front battery box....again!

EDIT: I had to use 1K resistor to show somewhere at 65deg. Any less and this wouldnt work. So i will not be able to use water temp gauge. Instead i will adapt oil temp gage to suit my temp range.

frog
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Re: Peugeot 406 Coupe EV conversion

Post by frog »

So the alarm is gone now? Good progress! :smile:

I am a bit surprised that a resistor of less than 1 kOhm does not work. You mean the alarm comes on again? I would expect that if the resistor is permanently at around 500 Ohm (90 °C), the engine ECU would always think that it is doing a warm start.

By the way, I had a look into the Bosch "funktionsrahmen". It is a document that describes in detail all functions of the engine ECU. It has a section "Sonstige Funktionen - Kühlmitteltemperatur-Steuerung" (Other functions - coolant temperature control). Hard to read, but it tries to keep the temperature within normal operating range. It can control up to three devices: fan (either electronic or relay-switched), electric thermostat and electric water pump. (Your model has only switched fan.)

The function seems to regulate not only on the actual (current) value of the CTS but also on its dynamic behaviour. E.g. fast rising temperature means it will ask for maximum fan power. It looks like it will produce a fault code when the temperature rises (or drops) too fast.

My copy is for diesel (EDC15+) but I'm sure for petrol there is the same function.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

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