2.2 HDi Options

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Which 2.2 HDi vehicle represents the best choice?

2.2 HDi Citroen C5 Exclusive (leather) 86k £1800
4
22%
2.2 HDi Peugeot 406 Exec Estate 76k £3000
5
28%
Wild card - 2.2 HDi Peugeot 607 90k £3000
0
No votes
Stick with my current 110 HDi & spend £1000 getting it how I want it
9
50%
 
Total votes : 18

2.2 HDi Options

Postby waue1978 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:19 pm

Bearing in mind this is a 406 forum, it is probably obvious which one everybody will go for, but thought it'd be interesting to get a few different viewpoints & reasons. The options above are based on vehicles which I have seen for sale & considered buying, but I'm a little torn by the many different things that I want from the car.

My most perfect option would probably be a 406 Exec estate that's already been deFAPped & 180bhp remapped with the extra rear seats & the Citroen hydraulic suspension fitted, but that just isn't going to happen.

Each of these cars offers something that I'm looking for that the other 2 don't, but in some cases (specifically the C5) £1000 left in the pocket is very hard to ignore.

The only thing I would ask is could everybody who votes please give a reason for their vote (if they have one)?

The results of this & any extra knowledge that anybody may be able to offer could result in me having a trip out with a wedge of cash at the weekend.

Thanks in advance all.
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby Welly » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:43 pm

I say stick with what you've got at the moment.

The other cars are still likely to 'need' up to £1000.00 on improvements anyway. If your the kinda bloke who likes his cars spot-on then I guess you're well on with your current car anyway?

If I had a 406 again I would do:

Engine Mounts
De-cat/de-fap
new radiator and coolant
New sussy bushes
strut brace
uprated clutch and de-dmf
Re-map/possibly bigger IC
Cambelt and Aux stuff
EGR
Check/replace Lift Pump

Hold on, this is getting pricey :lol:

The 607 would be kinda cool but sheds money like last years' Lap Top :roll: similar with the C5 too?
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby Doggy » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:52 pm

I voted for the uber-expensive 76k silver machine, because it most closely reflects my views, but I would not advocate spending so much on one. (You didn't offer a 'look out for a cheaper 2.2 406' option).

Looked at that ad myself earlier today and while it could easily be the tidiest 2.2 exec estate money can buy, £3000 seems a bit OTT. I wouldn't buy it at that myself, (but my views are coloured by a realistic view of the fairly hard life my own cars have). You might beat them down a bit for a quick sale / no trade-in.

You'll have a lot more leverage if you can find any of the following:
DPF warning light / MFD messages 'UNBLOCK DIESEL FILTER', 'DIESEL ADDITIVE MINIMUM LEVEL' or similar.
ANTI POLLUTION FAULT, EML lit
Lack of evidence of a recent 'Anti-pollution service', (which is dealerspeak for topping up the Eolys).
(Claim any of the above means £6-700 to put right).
The slightest suggestion of any play or stiffness in the COM2000 stalks - (Claim £300+ to put right)
Give it a good pasting, looking out for any vibration / clutch slip etc. (£400 parts + 6 hours labour)
Look for any oily stains around the intercooler / evidence of boost leaks (Claim it'll need a £1200 turbo swap)

De-FAP & remap needn't cost you more than £50/£60.

Can't help you with your desire to turn it into a 'lemon', but if we have another meet, I reckon we could set up some counselling for you.....
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby rwb » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:04 pm

I voted for Stick with my current 110 HDi & spend £1000 getting it how I want it

But in fact I'd razor that to Stick with my current 110 HDi and just run it till summat busts.

Well, you've seem my 406 and we obviously have very different opinions on an acceptable level of tydiness, but seriously: don't throw good money after bad.

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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby DiscoPol » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:07 pm

Stu I voted keep the old one and tart it up with a bag of sand,

i think for a man like yourself with exacting tastes then whatever you get next you will have to bring up to standard and thats going to cost a fair bit, save the initial outlay and focus on what you have, a grand is a good lump to throw at a car and you will see and feel the improvements in the current 110 but spending three grand on something else and then having to spend more to make it shiny and so on is just crazy, what about that house deposit?

dont do it buddy!

you are simply being attracted to the newer cars because you think you should, but there isnt really anything wrong with the current one, its just a few small niggles,spend a grand now and you will get plenty more service out of the 406 and see the improvements a grand can make to an older car.

Well thats my 2 zloties worth mate, i think im getting old as i am being sensible :(
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby waue1978 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:57 am

dogslife wrote:I voted for the uber-expensive 76k silver machine, because it most closely reflects my views, but I would not advocate spending so much on one. (You didn't offer a 'look out for a cheaper 2.2 406' option).



Left that one out because I'd have to be really lucky to get one. That red one from Southampton a couple of days ago was already on a promise to someone within 12hrs. In a way, that was where the C5 really got me interested as although it isn't a 406, it is certainly the cheapest 2.2 option. Whereas that 03 plate Exec is £3k, there's an equivalent C5 hatch (very similar mileage too) on sale for less than £1800.

dogslife wrote:Looked at that ad myself earlier today and while it could easily be the tidiest 2.2 exec estate money can buy, £3000 seems a bit OTT. I wouldn't buy it at that myself, (but my views are coloured by a realistic view of the fairly hard life my own cars have). You might beat them down a bit for a quick sale / no trade-in.



Having seen what the Ebay one went for a few weeks ago, I reckon he won't budge too much, but was thinking along the lines of getting the cambelt done if it hasn't already been.

dogslife wrote:You'll have a lot more leverage if you can find any of the following:
DPF warning light / MFD messages 'UNBLOCK DIESEL FILTER', 'DIESEL ADDITIVE MINIMUM LEVEL' or similar.
ANTI POLLUTION FAULT, EML lit
Lack of evidence of a recent 'Anti-pollution service', (which is dealerspeak for topping up the Eolys).
(Claim any of the above means £6-700 to put right).
The slightest suggestion of any play or stiffness in the COM2000 stalks - (Claim £300+ to put right)
Give it a good pasting, looking out for any vibration / clutch slip etc. (£400 parts + 6 hours labour)
Look for any oily stains around the intercooler / evidence of boost leaks (Claim it'll need a £1200 turbo swap)

De-FAP & remap needn't cost you more than £50/£60.



Knew about most of the warnings, but funnily enough I had a good look at the intercooler pipes on the C5 on Saturday (after seeing the posts between yourself & Ian the other day) & although that one was clean, it gave me a fair idea of what & where to look for.

Previously hadn't really thought of the clutch or DMF being much of an issue, but put that C5 in 4th at low revs & put my foot down & felt the same vibration as we did in yours accompanied by a hint of clutch slip too. Did slightly put me off the thought of a 2.2 as the clutch on my 110 has done more miles on the poriginal & I've heard of quite a few 2.0 HDis not needing a clutch change until well past 100k. Do you know if if the Dogmobile ever had a clutch replacement?

Was planning to budget a little more for the deFAP as I wasn't expecting assistance from you & Ian for nothing as it isn't a 5min job, but was thinking along the lines of getting a knackered FAP to hammer the insides out of beforehand, then just swap it for the one on the car, thoroughly clean out the one on the car & keep it handy should the lack of a FAP be an issue with the new MOTs. Original plan was to get the FAP from Adrian the coupe breaker, but it would appear that C5s have a different type based on the Ebay listings for replacement filters, so there was another point scored for the Exec estate.



Noticing that the winner at the mo is keeping the current car though, so that could end up being the winner as both times that I went out to look at other cars (BMW & the C5) the 406 has handled the trip really well. Almost felt a bit weird on the drive home. Imagine if you took the wife out with you to a lap dancing club, or somewhere that you spent the night chatting up every bit of talent on offer, then took her home & still got "the ride of your life" from her...


DiscoPol wrote:Stu I voted keep the old one and tart it up with a bag of sand,

i think for a man like yourself with exacting tastes then whatever you get next you will have to bring up to standard and thats going to cost a fair bit, save the initial outlay and focus on what you have, a grand is a good lump to throw at a car and you will see and feel the improvements in the current 110 but spending three grand on something else and then having to spend more to make it shiny and so on is just crazy, what about that house deposit?

dont do it buddy!

you are simply being attracted to the newer cars because you think you should, but there isnt really anything wrong with the current one, its just a few small niggles,spend a grand now and you will get plenty more service out of the 406 and see the improvements a grand can make to an older car.

Well thats my 2 zloties worth mate, i think im getting old as i am being sensible :(


That house deposit is one of the things that makes me wonder about changing or keeping & probably what keeps me looking at the C5s rather than the Peugeots. Most of the C5s seem to be in pretty good condition as for some reason the panels don't pick up the car park dents as much as the 406. Either that or it's because they spend most of their lives parked in the wide disabled bays...

But I do keep worrying about the 7 seat thing. The wife remembers the C5 & said it was nice & not to worry about the 7 seats as we've only used them twice in 3 years, but then I have to point out that if we only used them once, it was enough to warrant having the extra seats. As an example, we now have the father-in-law, sister-in-law & nephew coming over from Ireland next month (no birthday for me this year) & the sister-in-law wants to take the nephew to Legoland. I'm the only driver, so in the car would be me, the wife, the sister-in-law, the nephew & our 2 kids. That makes 6 already & if her father decides he'll come after all then all 7 seats are filled. Even if myself, Jack & the father-in-law don't go in to Legoland, that would still be 6 seats used in the car as Jack would have to come with me to drop them off. We have looked at the public transport option (as I'd rather not be spending 5 hours driving to Legoland & back twice) but it'll cost a fortune & from here the trip takes 4 hours each way.

I've just thought of another option to add. Buy a house for me & Jack & I'll get a 2.2 HDi 406 coupe instead...

The list of things that I'd look at doing to mine are the following, so if anybody has any ideas on cost, it might help:

front anti-roll bar bushes & rear subframe bushes - been told they're ok, but another 6 months on the roads around here & they'll be borderline

cruise control - if it would even be possible on a car with no pre-wiring for it

tidy the electric seat conversion - would need seat looms from a car with all the necessary plugs

another black glovebox housing - current one rattles a bit where one of the clips was broken removing it

Rapier door cards - or get an auto-sparky to steal a feed from the courtesy light to get the door lights working. Where is the switch for that anyway? Most cars have a button in the door shut somewhere, but I can't find anything.

replacement bonnet - starting to rust from inside

new black plastic bit from the bottom of the tailgate - chrome is well corroded

parking dents removed from 3 out of 4 doors

new wiper arms - more bare metal than black showing on them

refurbish roof bars - get another set, get them painted & replace originals. Recoup some cost by refurbing the originals to sell on again

paintwork - roof has some lacquer peel next to the rubber door seals & discolouring (rusty colour but no bubbles) in the water channels under the rubber seals, small rust spot in driver's door shut & paint peeling at front of drivers front wheelarch. Hopefully most minor scratches would come out with a good machine polish, but not sure how much I'd get charged for that either.

If one turned up, I'd probably fit the full leather interior. Cost would be negligible as I could probably recoup most of that with the half leather. The half leather seats are good for the side support, but the centre part is a bit of a pain to clean.
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby Doggy » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:02 pm

On de-FAP costs, 4 few coupe owners I've done the software for have used an exhaust place to remove / smash element out / refit for about £ 25 - 30.

I recommend buying your own Galletto, because then you can swap between the standard & 180 bhp maps whenever you want. (Happily do it for you or show you how, if you prefer).

Getting a spare FAP from Ade might save you some grief, but I wouldn't bother. For a few years at least, they're likely to be cheap / easy to get hold of in the unlikely event you'd actually need it.

Dogmobile's still on the original clutch, after 162k, no sign of clutch slip & the pedal's not as high as some I've driven. I'm the 3rd owner, the other two were women and the last one towed a horse box with it 'occasionally'. I have virtually all the service history, bought it in October 08 with 103k and remapped it in July 10 at 137k.

Some people would call that luck, I think it's got more to do with waiting at junctions in neutral. :roll:

(I wasn't trying to give you the impression the DMF / clutch / turbo were troublesome, just trying to give you some bargaining ammo).
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby waue1978 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:40 pm

dogslife wrote:On de-FAP costs, 4 few coupe owners I've done the software for have used an exhaust place to remove / smash element out / refit for about £ 25 - 30.

I recommend buying your own Galletto, because then you can swap between the standard & 180 bhp maps whenever you want. (Happily do it for you or show you how, if you prefer).

Getting a spare FAP from Ade might save you some grief, but I wouldn't bother. For a few years at least, they're likely to be cheap / easy to get hold of in the unlikely event you'd actually need it.

Dogmobile's still on the original clutch, after 162k, no sign of clutch slip & the pedal's not as high as some I've driven. I'm the 3rd owner, the other two were women and the last one towed a horse box with it 'occasionally'. I have virtually all the service history, bought it in October 08 with 103k and remapped it in July 10 at 137k.

Some people would call that luck, I think it's got more to do with waiting at junctions in neutral. :roll:

(I wasn't trying to give you the impression the DMF / clutch / turbo were troublesome, just trying to give you some bargaining ammo).



Have been considering getting the Galletto as even if I stick with the 110, I fancy sticking the remap file on that to see if the extra grunt improves economy a bit. It just puts me off a bit knowing how badly I could get it wrong. Was half contemplating getting something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180716662782? ... 1423.l2649

Followed by a Galletto which would be kept with the same, giving me a laptop purely for the car stuff (mine is Windows 7). A little confused by the Galletto/KWP2000 though - are they the same thing or do you need both?

Quite relived to hear the clutch & DMF aren't a major issue - the one I drove on Saturday may have been a bit abused. My one had just under 90k on when I had it & never had any vibration or clutch slip, although having just looked at the write up I did when I put it on Ebay, it had the cambelt replaced at 4 years old & less than 60k. To be honest, vibration & clutch slip wouldn't so much give me bargaining ammo - more a reason to walk away as it would cost me nearly £1000 to get done.
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby Doggy » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:00 pm

waue1978 wrote: Have been considering getting the Galletto as even if I stick with the 110, I fancy sticking the remap file on that to see if the extra grunt improves economy a bit. It just puts me off a bit knowing how badly I could get it wrong. Was half contemplating getting something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180716662782? ... 1423.l2649

Followed by a Galletto which would be kept with the same, giving me a laptop purely for the car stuff (mine is Windows 7). A little confused by the Galletto/KWP2000 though - are they the same thing or do you need both?


If you don't already have a suitable laptop, that looks pretty reasonable - at least if it doesn't work straight out the box, you've only got one supplier to shout at....

You need to add £20 ish for a Galletto 1260 / KWP2000 - (they're both ecu flash programmers and there's probably others out there at similar cost. Personally, I'd get the Galletto as it's the proven solution and there's a few of us you can compare notes with).
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby plod » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:39 pm

DiscoPol wrote:
you are simply being attracted to the newer cars because you think you should, but there isnt really anything wrong with the current one, its just a few small niggles,spend a grand now and you will get plenty more service out of the 406 and see the improvements a grand can make to an older car.



I'm ever increasingly thinking this way
I think I should replace the plodmobile, purely because of it's age and think I should be driving a newer car
Truth is, there is very little wrong with the plodmobile
I'm tempted to replace the ARB bushes, and possibly a few other suspension bushes, and keep running the old girl
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby ToddM » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:27 pm

I voted "Keep the current car" as there is next to nowt wrong with it, it both looks excellent and is quite low-mileage. Also within that £1000 budget you could easily squeeze a 2.2 engine/box if you wanted to and I'm sure you wouldn't struggle to find help with fitting. Any forum members live close? Just an idea.
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby waue1978 » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:44 pm

ToddM wrote: Also within that £1000 budget you could easily squeeze a 2.2 engine/box if you wanted to and I'm sure you wouldn't struggle to find help with fitting. Any forum members live close? Just an idea.


That just isn't going to happen. Good 2.2 engines fetch prices of well over £500 & it wouldn't so much be a case of "help with fitting" as somebody do it for me while I make the teas - I'm just not able to do those type of jobs.

There are now 6 votes for keeping & 3 for the £3k 2.2 Exec.

Welly, Disco, RWB & ToddM are confirmed "keep the red one" votes & I have a suspicion Plod voted the same way, while Doggy is the only one to admit to voting for the £3k Exec.

Would be interested to know who else had voted for the Exec & who else voted to keep my one.

Unfortunately, due to working Sat night to Wed night this week coming & having to sort out Jack's bedroom for the impending invas... sorry, visit - I won't be looking at anything this weekend, but hopefully I may be allowed some time next weekend to be able to make a (long)trip to Stafford & if that still isn't up to my discerning tastes maybe even come back via Gloucestershire to have a look at a couple of C5s on the return trip.

Just realised earlier that I hadn't mentioned another of my reasons for swaying towards the C5s - there's bugger all that can be done to them. Particularly in the case of the one with the leather interior as it already has all of the standard kit that I would otherwise be on the lookout for to upgrade. As people may have noticed from the things that have been done to my car, I have this annoying habit of changing things (although I may not be any good with mechanics, I'm not too bad with trim & f&fs) & with a C5, about the most that could really be done is to fit some different wheels & my rear door handle mod.

Also here is the road that I travel on a daily basis to give an idea of why I liked the hydraulic suspension:

<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&amp;q=sp105es&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Andover+SP10+5ES,+United+Kingdom&amp;gl=uk&amp;ll=51.218724,-1.466581&amp;spn=0.000027,0.026071&amp;t=m&amp;z=14&amp;vpsrc=0&amp;layer=c&amp;cbll=51.218924,-1.463338&amp;panoid=cLM6cmbvhHpAMCAXMs0UCA&amp;cbp=12,0,,0,0&amp;source=embed&amp;output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&amp;q=sp105es&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Andover+SP10+5ES,+United+Kingdom&amp;gl=uk&amp;ll=51.218724,-1.466581&amp;spn=0.000027,0.026071&amp;t=m&amp;z=14&amp;vpsrc=0&amp;layer=c&amp;cbll=51.218924,-1.463338&amp;panoid=cLM6cmbvhHpAMCAXMs0UCA&amp;cbp=12,0,,0,0&amp;source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>

If I'm remembering right, I travelled something similar on the way to Doggy's in that 11 plate Scenic & even that was nasty on the bumps.
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby waue1978 » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:47 pm

waue1978 wrote:Also here is the road that I travel on a daily basis to give an idea of why I liked the hydraulic suspension:

<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&amp;q=sp105es&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Andover+SP10+5ES,+United+Kingdom&amp;gl=uk&amp;ll=51.218724,-1.466581&amp;spn=0.000027,0.026071&amp;t=m&amp;z=14&amp;vpsrc=0&amp;layer=c&amp;cbll=51.218924,-1.463338&amp;panoid=cLM6cmbvhHpAMCAXMs0UCA&amp;cbp=12,0,,0,0&amp;source=embed&amp;output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&amp;q=sp105es&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Andover+SP10+5ES,+United+Kingdom&amp;gl=uk&amp;ll=51.218724,-1.466581&amp;spn=0.000027,0.026071&amp;t=m&amp;z=14&amp;vpsrc=0&amp;layer=c&amp;cbll=51.218924,-1.463338&amp;panoid=cLM6cmbvhHpAMCAXMs0UCA&amp;cbp=12,0,,0,0&amp;source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>

If I'm remembering right, I travelled something similar on the way to Doggy's in that 11 plate Scenic & even that was nasty on the bumps.


I'll try again:


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=sp105es ... =12,0,,0,0
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby lozz » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:58 am

Sorry ivoted for the option at top of the list, the citreon, call me a traitor if you want :mrgreen:

Why?
well if it was me, if iwas spending cash on another motor, id pick one with the leather seats/trim saves messing changing eg a lx into something its not meant to be,

why the citreon ?

dunno tbh other than it looks modern, no droplinks and all that to go wrong. and the insurance group differnce,
dont get me wrong ilove the 406s but the insurance prices /costs steers me towards staying with citreon
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Re: 2.2 HDi Options

Postby lozz » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:00 pm

lozz wrote:Sorry ivoted for the option at top of the list, the citreon, call me a traitor if you want :mrgreen:

Why?
well if it was me, if iwas spending cash on another motor, id pick one with the leather seats/trim and all the toys
saves all the messing later on,

why the citreon ?

dunno tbh other than it looks modern, no droplinks and all that to go wrong. and the insurance group differnce,
dont get me wrong ilove the 406s but the insurance prices /costs steers me towards staying with citreon
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