power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

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lisboa
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power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by lisboa » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:44 pm

Hello all

Newbie here writing from Lisbon, Portugal. I apologise in advance for this long first post but after climbing a steep learning curve about car engines in general and the 406, in particular (a lot of it here, thank you), I still have the following issues and questions.

Just got an '02 RHZ (180K Miles) and it is suffering from 2 problems.

Loss of Power
On the 2 extended drives I've made I felt that it had no vim on the way to a speed of 120 and the slightest incline necessitated a downshift to 4th. I also didn't feel or hear the turbo kick in (but I have little experience of turbos, so, don't really know). Among the possibilities that I have considered (from extensive reading and lurking - especially here [for which, thanks]:
  • Throttle cable slack (it was and i have adjusted it but haven't yet tested it as I can't drive it until I drain excess oil from a recent overfill (see below). I did confirm that in neutral I could get to 4000 rpm easily but I have not taken it out on the road to see whether it is more responsive.

    EGR valve stuck in open state which would mean that both at idle and at WOT (when the valve would normally be shut), exhaust gases would be admitted to the combustion chamber. I am discounting this option as I understand that if this were to be the case, the car would stall at idle. Can anyone confirm this?

    The turbocharger is not kicking in - are there any circumstances (aside from a defective turbo) when a turbo would fail to kick in? I understand that the wastegate is controlled by a vacuum solenoid. My understanding is that if this solenoid was to fail (either because of vacuum failure or because of electrical failure, the wastegate would not be under vacuum and therefore the wastegate would be stuck open - is that correct? It does not sound right to me because the default state of the turbo solenoid is no vacuum (until command is received from the ecu) and that suggests that, by default, the wastegate is open - i would have thought that it would be closed by default until the overboost conditions are met. Any help understanding how the wastegate actually works would be appreciated.

    The engine is badly worn and is losing compression.

    The throttle position sensor is defective

    The MAF sensor is defective

    Are there any other obvious causes of the poor performance i describe?

Pools of oil near injectors
Another issue often discussed here. I saw a warning message telling me that I need to top up the engine oil and added a litre without first checking the dipstick. Then I drove about 50Km and subsequently noticed the pools of oil in the troughs to the right (looking at the engine from the front of the car) side of the cylinder head. I'll get it drained out tomorrow but haven't driven it in anger since. The theory that sounds most likely is that this is caused by a pressurised crankcase. I am trying to understand how overfilling can cause this. I understand that the crankshaft whips up air because it is in contact with the oil now that it has been overfilled and that when those bubbles are compressed in the oil pump and sent around the crankcase, the effect is both increased pressure and oil starvation. Does that sound right? In the photo below, I have circled 2 pipes. The one in green is the one from the intercooler. The one in red joins the rocker cover about midway - that seems to me to be where the oil is coming from. What is this pipe and why is it so oily - if it is the result of pressure in the crankcase, what is the path to this pipe? And should it be hard (all the other pipes are soft and flexible).
20180714_192958.jpg
My understand

Thanks in advance for your help.

mainoo

frog
2.0 16v
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:18 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by frog » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:49 am

For the lack of responsiveness: i think you should indeed check the turbo vacuum actuator. Either the solenoid is not working / not connected or the vacuum pipe is plugged or leaking. On your model (same as mine), the vacuum is operated to operate the turbo: no vacuum = no turbo. The solenoid is on the bulkhead; locations can be seen here: http://www.406oc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f= ... 4&p=244787 .

You may want to check if you are able to drive at 130 or faster. If your maximum speed is around 130 km, the ECU might be in "limp mode". If you can reach like 150 (even if slowly but steadily) then i think it is definitely the actuating of the turbo.

For the oil pools: i had exactly the same issue. You might want to tighten up the bolts on the rocker cover (the ones with the big silver heads and torx fittings).

As you circled: those places are notorious for leaking oil.

Left (the one you circled green) is the "doser valve"; it always leaks. You could disconnect and plug the vacuum hose that leads to it so it is no longer operated. After doing that myself, I removed it, cleaned it out and applied some oil resistant adhesive on the inside, closing all the holes from which the oil might leak, then fitted it back into place. That fixed the oil leaking for me.

Middle (the one you circled red) is the crankcase ventilation. The connection to the rocker cover always seems to leak a bit. Try to tighten the metal pipe clip or replace it by a "jubilee clip" (google for it).
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

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GingerMagic
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Location: Bournemouth

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by GingerMagic » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:05 am

Hi.
The solenoid on the left (looking at the engine) is the turbo solenoid - unplug the pipe behind the front one and you should feel/hear the vacuum on your finger - no vacuum no turbo.

The MAF is important, a defective one will give bad readings, but if you unplug the grey connector then the reading is a 'basic' reading which is enough to give good performance - try unplugging it and see if it improves performance.

The throttle sensor is also important, as if it's dirty it can also give a bad reading - it can be removed, split in half and cleaned inside with contact cleaner.

Good luck.
1999 T4 family wagon
2005 Vauxhall Meriva
1998 406 V6 Coupe - Midlife crisis..!
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.

lisboa
1.6 8v
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:14 am

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by lisboa » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:45 pm

Thanks very much to both of you for your responses.

I'm going for a drive with the mechanic this afternoon and will try to reach the suggested speeds. One test that I did carry out earlier was to rev the engine and feel the effect on the intercooler hose and it was pressurised. Can I assume from this that turbo is kicking in (and that the vacuum chain and actuator are good)?

I clearly didn't understand how the turbo gets activated as I thought it was activated in response to putting your foot down (which resulted in more fuel and thus more exhaust and thus more compressed air from the turbo and thus more fuel and exhaust, etc, etc). I thought the turbo solenoid only triggered the wastegate (back down to the base of the learning curve).

Thanks again.

lisboa
1.6 8v
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:14 am

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by lisboa » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:29 pm

Revising my understanding (mumbling to myself here - but would be grateful for confirmation).
  • The wastegate is the on/off switch for the turbo (i thought it was simply a bypass designed to prevent overboost but thinking about it properly, in order for it to do that job it must switch it off)..
    By default the wastegate is open and the turbo solenoid is blocked and no vacuum is applied to the wastegate so no boost.
    When the ecu wants boost, it sends a command to the solenoid to send vacuum to the wastegate to pull the wastegate shut which stops the bypass and diverts the exhaust to the hot end which spools up the turbo compressor.

frog
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Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:18 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by frog » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:05 am

Yes, that is perfectly formulated.

Here is a very interesting document. On page 23 (pdf page 33) you can see the diagram of the air flow. The interesting part:
DW10 air flow.jpg
(68.22 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Image

As you can see: by default, the waste gate valve is open, so the exhaust gases are bypassing the turbo. By applying vacuum, the waste gate is closed, forcing the exhaust gases through the turbo vanes.

On the 2.2 litre HDI (DW12) engines it is the opposite. Lack of vacuum gives permanent boost.
Last edited by frog on Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

frog
2.0 16v
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:18 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by frog » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:09 am

lisboa wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:45 pm
One test that I did carry out earlier was to rev the engine and feel the effect on the intercooler hose and it was pressurised. Can I assume from this that turbo is kicking in (and that the vacuum chain and actuator are good)
Up to a certain level. Best is to measure the boost pressure. Your mechanic will be able to do so.

The "PP2000" (Peugeot Planet 2000) software can also read out the boost pressure sensor in the engine (part no. 16 on the diagram i just showed above). To use PP2000 you need a "Lexia cable" (google for it). As a Peugeot owner you in fact cannot do without one! :cheesy:
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

lisboa
1.6 8v
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:14 am

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by lisboa » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:02 pm

Hello again

+Frog, thanks so much for the confirmation of my understanding and for the very helpful document.

I took the car to a mechanic who confirms that the turbo is spinning and was surprised that I could not hear it as it is also whistling slightly at low revs. I am deaf in one ear so perhaps that was why I could not hear it. He didn't answer the question I most wanted answered - whether the boost output and that received in the inlet manifold were what they should be. We took the car for a drive and reached 160 kph before I lost my nerve and asked him to slow down. Progress seemed ok though it sounded quite thrashy by then. I still did not feel a kick but and I still don't know whether I should be (which is why I want to confirm what boost is being delivered). I did not like the mechanic or his prices so I went on my way. He had disconnected the vacuum inlet from my EGR valve and stoppered it - can I leave it like that until I address the performance issues? Will any harm result?

I am planning to drive the 2000+ Km to London from Lisbon so I've decided to do the minimum required (aux belt kit + suspension [rattles around quite a bit and is spongy] and a service [filters, liquids and brakes checked]) before I set off (have dropped the car off with another mechanic I liked better to get this done). I'm hoping to find a good mechanic who knows how to use a boost/vacuum gauge in the UK to try to get a clear understanding of the performance of the engine. It's a 300K Km car so I am expecting that there will be some compression loss and that this will affect the exhaust pressure going into the turbo and therefore the boost generated.

Regarding PP2000, I have looked at it again and again and thought to myself 'here be dragons'. The first challenge is buying the right kit.
  • Is fleabay a safe source?
    which of the different versions will be compatible with an '02 RHZ?
    what is the minimum windows XP configuration required in order to make it work (ie naked OS + updates + other required drivers, software, etc)
    I drive a macbook - can PP2000 be made to run on one?
I have also bought a vacuum gauge as I figured it would be useful for measuring the vacuum across the sstem, at least. Don't know whether I will also be able to use it to measure the manifold pressure as well.

The AC temp will only go down to 14 degrees cent. That doesn't seem that cool to me. Furthermore, it doesn't consistently give cool air even at that temperature so I reckon it needs re-charging. Should I be able to set a lower temp though? And does the temp I can set depend in any way of the refrigerant being ok? I would have expected to be able to set a target temp even if the system can't deliver it.

I read often about droplinks needing to be replaced often - what symptoms would I get if they were bad. Right now, the only suspension related symptoms I get are a constant rattle and feeling of things being loose and a sponginess - would these imply droplink failure too?

Thanks again for your help
mainoo

frog
2.0 16v
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:18 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by frog » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:32 pm

Wow, long story but i like to read :wink: I will try to give you my best answers to your questions
lisboa wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:02 pm
We took the car for a drive and reached 160 kph before I lost my nerve and asked him to slow down.
Good, that means no "limp mode"!
He had disconnected the vacuum inlet from my EGR valve and stoppered it - can I leave it like that until I address the performance issues? Will any harm result?
No, I am driving like this for a few years now. All works fine, but there will be a fault code in the engine management ECU indicating "too much air" or something like that. But the fault is not severe enough for it to be displayed on the LCD. You might get a bit more smoke because the ECU cannot properly estimate the air flow. I reprogrammed my ECU such that it now knows there is no EGR. It is one byte that must be changed from '1' to '0'.
It's a 300K Km car so I am expecting that there will be some compression loss and that this will affect the exhaust pressure going into the turbo and therefore the boost generated.
300K km is "just run in" :cheesy: . Mine is at 550 K. Compression loss? Could be, but could just as well not be. The only way to tell is to measure; don't just assume.
Is fleabay a safe source?
I bought mine at ali express.
which of the different versions will be compatible with an '02 RHZ?
All of them, '02 is a long time ago so they all support it. But i recommend a "full chip" version because that has the best chance of also being able to communicate with the other equipment (air bag, BSI, ABS, radio) which can be quite useful.
what is the minimum windows XP configuration required in order to make it work (ie naked OS + updates + other required drivers, software, etc)
You need a "bare bones" freshly installed version of windows XP. Anything else (like Windows 7 or 10) might work but it might as well not.
I drive a macbook - can PP2000 be made to run on one?
Yes, use "Oracle Virtualbox" which is also available for mac. That will emulate any (old fashioned) computer on any (host) OS. You will be able to install Windows XP on that. You can easily "plug through" USB devices like the lexia cable.
I have also bought a vacuum gauge as I figured it would be useful for measuring the vacuum across the sstem, at least. Don't know whether I will also be able to use it to measure the manifold pressure as well.
I don't think so, manifold pressure is positive, vacuum is negative.
The AC temp will only go down to 14 degrees cent.
Yes, that is a restriction of the system. It is designed that way.
Furthermore, it doesn't consistently give cool air even at that temperature so I reckon it needs re-charging.
Does it cool consistently while driving on the highway? I.e. it stops cooling only when driving slowly or stopping often? Then it may be that your cooling fan is not working. If that happens the coolant pressure in the airco system will rise and the compressor will be switched off by the system to protect it.
And does the temp I can set depend in any way of the refrigerant being ok?
No, it is fixed to a minimum of 14 degrees.
I read often about droplinks needing to be replaced often - what symptoms would I get if they were bad. Right now, the only suspension related symptoms I get are a constant rattle and feeling of things being loose and a sponginess - would these imply droplink failure too?
Simple answer: yes. As you describe, "constant rattle and feeling of things being loose and a sponginess": for 99% sure it is the droplinks. These are service parts, replace them at least every 5 years. Replace them (both front and back) before starting to replace other things. They are very easy to replace and cost very little.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

lisboa
1.6 8v
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:14 am

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by lisboa » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:55 pm

+Frog, Thanks very much for taking the time to respond to my questions - i really appreciate it.

The car is with the mechanic for a service, aux belt change and suspension.

I've now got XP running on virtualbox on my mac and am about to buy my copy of PP2000.

Thanks again for your kindness and patience.
mainoo

frog
2.0 16v
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:18 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by frog » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:12 pm

No problem, you're welcome :D
I've now got XP running on virtualbox on my mac and am about to buy my copy of PP2000.
Don't buy the software, buy the Lexia cable. There will be a CD with software that comes with it.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

lisboa
1.6 8v
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:14 am

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by lisboa » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:47 pm

I was going to buy this on the bay - is there a less expensive option? The other options I identified either didn't work on diesel or were not full chip.

frog
2.0 16v
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:18 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by frog » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:57 pm

That looks ok. A bit expensive, but you'll probably get value for money: fast delivery and no fuss when you want to return it in case it doesn't work.

They all work for the diesel, don't worry.

I bought mine at aliexpress . They are about half the price there. But shipping takes longer, up to a month. And you don't usually return it, too much of a hassle. If it doesn't work you just buy another :wink:
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

lisboa
1.6 8v
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:14 am

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by lisboa » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:53 pm

Thanks again, +Frog.

As suggested earlier, looks like my cooling fan has stopped working and the mechanic needs more time than is available to me for repair. I need to get from lisbon to London (in about 3 800Km legs). I'm told that motorway driving should be ok and that any overheating problems will arise if/when i sit in traffic (I don't have the car with me to check). I am inclined to do the trip and keep a watchful eye on the temperature gauge - where should it sit normally when in traffic? I have also been advised not to use the AC to reduce the chance of overheating - any views on that?

Is this a crazy, ill-advised idea?

Thanks for your help and advice.

mainoo

frog
2.0 16v
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:18 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: power loss and oil leaks in RHZ engine

Post by frog » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:00 pm

As suggested earlier, looks like my cooling fan has stopped working and the mechanic needs more time than is available to me for repair. I need to get from lisbon to London (in about 3 800Km legs). I'm told that motorway driving should be ok and that any overheating problems will arise if/when i sit in traffic (I don't have the car with me to check). I am inclined to do the trip and keep a watchful eye on the temperature gauge - where should it sit normally when in traffic? I have also been advised not to use the AC to reduce the chance of overheating - any views on that?
You'll be fine as long as you are moving. If you drive around 70 km/h or faster you will even be able to use the aircon. Remember to turn it off if you go slower. It will protect itself by switching off but it is better if you do it yourself.

Indeed keep an eye on the temperature gauge. Normally it is (on mine) just below 90. I think it can safely rise to 95. If you have to stop for some time or get stuck in a traffic jam it is best to turn off the engine.

I've driven a couple of thousand km with a non-functioning cooling fan. The engine itself needs remarkable little cooling. Must say that it was much less hot outside at that time than it is now.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

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