406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

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panadero
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406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by panadero » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:39 pm

Car virtually impossible to start from cold. Battery and starter motor good and no smoke issues present. AA man number 1 said after testing them that new glow plugs needed which I duly fitted but sadly this made no difference. Later AA man no 2 did OBD diagnostic check and said fuel pressure OK. He suggested there might be an injector issue but car has done only 45000 from new. He managed to get car started using the magic spray. Engine ticked over OK but after a few minutes abruptly cut out. Restarted (putting foot down i.e.higher revs needed) but cut out again when left on tick-over. However on tick-over you can definitely hear the odd split second hesitancy - presumably this is what is causing the cut out on tick-over.

I am no diesel expert but it just seems like a fuel issue i.e fuel flow not as 100% efficient or consistent as it should be. AA man said not timing related - so possibly air leakage somewhere? Or MAF or EGR?

Any suggestions please?

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steve_earwig
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by steve_earwig » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:51 pm

Lift pump? Can you hear it running before you try to start it?
Talking bollocks sin©e 2007

2004 D9 2.0 HDi 110 Estate lhd VF38ERHZF81657352 - sold but being very well looked after.
1991 Yamaha TDM850 - fuel leaks galore!
2008 Toyota Recall4 2.0 VVTI ATM LHD JTMBH31V90D007261 - flimsy piece of crap.
1953 Matchless G3LS - Can somebody stand by with an extinguisher?

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Doggy
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by Doggy » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:05 pm

+1 - lift pump's your prime suspect.

(I might know someone that has a virtually brand new one he doesn't need). :roll:
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2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate

panadero
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by panadero » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:41 pm

Thanks for that.

Is the lift pump the sender fuel pump located in the fuel tank? Sounds plausible as the problem. Is access to it under the rear seat (my car is an estate)?

Can you normally hear the pump from the driver's seat when you switch on the ignition or do you need an assistant to listen at the pump itself?

If the pump is not heard working should I check the fuse and the relay and if so where are they? Is the fuse in the fuse/relay in the engine compartment? According to the Haynes wiring chart the lift pump fuse is not in the inside fuse box (or I can't find it listed).

thanks

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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by steve_earwig » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:34 pm

Looks like fuse 2 in the engine fuse panel.
LP.jpg
(53.47 KiB) Downloaded 12 times
You should be able to hear it running from the driver's seat, it'll run for a few seconds once you turn the "ignition" on. The fuel pump/sender is under the rear seat, on the rhs under a cover. One problem: The hole in the floor hasn't changed since the D8 which only had the sender in the tank so the hole is too small, you can get to the top of the pump but removing/refitting it that way is nie on impossible.
Talking bollocks sin©e 2007

2004 D9 2.0 HDi 110 Estate lhd VF38ERHZF81657352 - sold but being very well looked after.
1991 Yamaha TDM850 - fuel leaks galore!
2008 Toyota Recall4 2.0 VVTI ATM LHD JTMBH31V90D007261 - flimsy piece of crap.
1953 Matchless G3LS - Can somebody stand by with an extinguisher?

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GingerMagic
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by GingerMagic » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:12 am

You can lift the rear seat and undo the cover to heat the pump more clearly - you should also hear a whoosh of fuel in the engine bay.
If you can't hear the pump working then give the bottom of the fuel tank a wallop - sometimes works :mrgreen:
1999 T4 family wagon, slow as a turd but the kids like it
2002 Citroen Xsara Picasso Hdi90 - Dirtied by the kids, Dented by the wife....
Sadly sold the 406, best cars I have ever owned
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.

panadero
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by panadero » Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:58 pm

Thanks for those comments.

Yes I can hear the whirr of the pump when I turn the ignition on. Would you believe it, today the engine started readily and ticked over smoothly! Did not
keep it going long enough though to see if it would cut out again. Curse these intermittent faults.

Just wondering if the fuel pressure regulator might be the culprit. Having looked at some videos on Youtube, I looked for the FPR near the HP pump with a vacuum hose attached but cannot see it. As I understand it, for satisfactory idling you need high vacuum in order to stop the diaphragm from expanding and causing high pressure in the rail. So presumably high pressure in the rail might be the cause of my engine cutting out at idle? This process of elimination could take some time.

Sorry to raise further questions but my previous turbo and non-turbo 306s diesels never caused me problems. But then again I now do very low mileage which diesels do not like - which is why I am changing over to petrol in the New Year.

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GingerMagic
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by GingerMagic » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:29 pm

The FPR has no vacuum, just an electronic connection.
It's easy to spot, it's a raised almost circular lump on the back of the pump, held in with 2 torx screws.

For ease of access you can undo the 2 nuts holding the fuel filter in place and flip the whole thing upside down out of the way - you can keep the pipes attached.
1999 T4 family wagon, slow as a turd but the kids like it
2002 Citroen Xsara Picasso Hdi90 - Dirtied by the kids, Dented by the wife....
Sadly sold the 406, best cars I have ever owned
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.

panadero
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by panadero » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:25 pm

I shall probably need to get a scan carried out - with likely code being P0230 primary fuel circuit?

In the meantime thanks to your advice. I now realise where the pump regulator is and how to remove it. But can someone please explain the difference between
this particular component and the fuel pressure sensor which typically screws into the common rail of diesel engines (but may not apply in this case?) and the pressure regulator solenoid? A lot of jargon here for a non-expert like myself to try and make sense of.

panadero
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by panadero » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:19 pm

Further to the above I have removed the fuel pressure regulator and tested it for continuity. It is OK so I therefore presume that this particular component is not the problem. Regarding the jargon issue for the name of the component, an Ebay sales ad interestingly states the following:

"Common Rail Pressure Control Valve. PRESSURE REGULATOR. BOSCH 0281002493
This part is called by many names including: MPROP, FCA, Injection Pressure Regulator, Fuel Pressure Regulator, Fuel Control Actuator, Measuring Unit, Fuel Measurement Solenoid Valve." Just to add to the confusion I believe it is also called Fuel Pressure Sensor (not mentioned in this ad).

For information,

richard9140
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by richard9140 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:40 pm

this sounds like a similar issue to a saga i experienced with my 406 - it would sometimes start and tick over then not start at all - in the end it turned out to be the BSI (body control unit) mine my changed with one from a breakers and has been fine ever since

Good luck
2003 2.0 Hdi Estate
2004 Honda CRV
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PeterN
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by PeterN » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:03 am

If you are referring to the pressure regulator on the back of the HP pump, testing the continuity will not usually help as the reason it fails is because the filter gets blocked. If you take it out you will see what looks like a stainless steel tube on the end, this is in fact a very fine filter which I have never successfully been able to clean.

Peter

charliedog
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Re: 406 2.0 HDI 110 2004 NON-STARTER AND CUTS OUT

Post by charliedog » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:44 pm

Pandora,

I have the same problem with my 406hdi 110 2003

Did you ever get to the bottom of the problem

Charliedog

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