Advice on niggly issues...

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Captain Jack
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Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Captain Jack » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:46 pm

Hi all

A couple of issues with my 407 that I am hoping to have some light shed on.

1) When changing gear, the car momentarily loses turbo boost, maybe for up to 1 second. Tends to happen when I want to accelerate briskly and only when I am changing gear. A very similar thing was happening on my previous 406 but only when I changed down and wanted to overtake. Is MAF a likely suspect or something else? The car is 9 years old with 80k on the clock.

2) When I am coasting along in gear and then press the gas pedal to get back on engine power, I often get a jolt as the car engages the wheels. A similar but less pronounced effect happens when coming off throttle and tends to be worse in lower gears. Sometimes it doesn't happen and I can come off and on throttle without any jolts but usually there's always something noticeable.

My first suspect is the knackered flywheel not providing any damping but could it be engine mounts or even some odd gremlin in the engine itself ...? Though doesn't really explain the jolt when coming off gas.

Any thoughts?
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2003 - 2008: 1998 Peugeot 406 2.1 TD 110bhp LX Saloon
2008 - 2009: 2004 Honda Accord 2.2 CDTI 136bhp Executive Saloon
2009 - 2013: 2002 Peugeot 406 2.0 HDI 110bhp Executive Saloon
2013 - ????: 2007 Peugeot 407 2.2 HDI 170bhp Executive Saloon (mapped to 213bhp :twisted:)

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Doggy
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Doggy » Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:02 am

Maybe a sticky TPS?

Try looking at the live data as you operate the throttle, (ignition on, engine stopped), see if progresses smoothly from 0 - 99% as you press the pedal.

A knackered DMF will normally present as a wobble & squeaky noise on tickover.
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Captain Jack
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Captain Jack » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:25 am

Didn't think about tps. Might well be! Though once it's on boost, it stays there. Maybe just sticky at the top of the pedal travel...
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2003 - 2008: 1998 Peugeot 406 2.1 TD 110bhp LX Saloon
2008 - 2009: 2004 Honda Accord 2.2 CDTI 136bhp Executive Saloon
2009 - 2013: 2002 Peugeot 406 2.0 HDI 110bhp Executive Saloon
2013 - ????: 2007 Peugeot 407 2.2 HDI 170bhp Executive Saloon (mapped to 213bhp :twisted:)

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GingerMagic
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by GingerMagic » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:32 am

Is yours the twin turbo Alex?
1999 T4 family wagon
2002 Citroen Xsara Picasso Hdi90
2003 Hdi110 Executive estate
1998 406 V6 Coupe - Midlife crisis..!
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Captain Jack
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Captain Jack » Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:31 pm

It is.
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2003 - 2008: 1998 Peugeot 406 2.1 TD 110bhp LX Saloon
2008 - 2009: 2004 Honda Accord 2.2 CDTI 136bhp Executive Saloon
2009 - 2013: 2002 Peugeot 406 2.0 HDI 110bhp Executive Saloon
2013 - ????: 2007 Peugeot 407 2.2 HDI 170bhp Executive Saloon (mapped to 213bhp :twisted:)

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GingerMagic
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by GingerMagic » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:37 pm

Sounds like you have a blockage or a split in a vacuum pipe - so the vacuum has to 'build' before the actuator, er, actuates...
1999 T4 family wagon
2002 Citroen Xsara Picasso Hdi90
2003 Hdi110 Executive estate
1998 406 V6 Coupe - Midlife crisis..!
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.

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Captain Jack
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Captain Jack » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:12 pm

Ah crap. I haven't the faintest clue on where to start looking for a vacuum leak on this engine. Will need to study Service Box diagrams to trace the tubes.... or even where the actuator is (is it likely to be the same sort of thing as we had on 406s with those solenoids on the bulkhead that you could swap over?)
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2003 - 2008: 1998 Peugeot 406 2.1 TD 110bhp LX Saloon
2008 - 2009: 2004 Honda Accord 2.2 CDTI 136bhp Executive Saloon
2009 - 2013: 2002 Peugeot 406 2.0 HDI 110bhp Executive Saloon
2013 - ????: 2007 Peugeot 407 2.2 HDI 170bhp Executive Saloon (mapped to 213bhp :twisted:)

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GingerMagic
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by GingerMagic » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:17 pm

Yes, but one solenoid is hard to get to.
If you use PP2000 it will say solenoid A or solenoid B, but in the meantime there is no harm in tracing eack pipe with your fingers to look for splits or cracked ends...

Richard is the one to speak too regarding this engine.... :mrgreen:
1999 T4 family wagon
2002 Citroen Xsara Picasso Hdi90
2003 Hdi110 Executive estate
1998 406 V6 Coupe - Midlife crisis..!
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.

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Captain Jack
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Captain Jack » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:22 pm

This looks like a nightmare....

Image
Image
2003 - 2008: 1998 Peugeot 406 2.1 TD 110bhp LX Saloon
2008 - 2009: 2004 Honda Accord 2.2 CDTI 136bhp Executive Saloon
2009 - 2013: 2002 Peugeot 406 2.0 HDI 110bhp Executive Saloon
2013 - ????: 2007 Peugeot 407 2.2 HDI 170bhp Executive Saloon (mapped to 213bhp :twisted:)

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Captain Jack
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Captain Jack » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:28 pm

This has been happening for ages but is not consistent. Sometimes it happens but mostly it's fine.

Where does the vacuum come from - the brake vacuum pump? Brakes are perfect* so I guess the pump itself is fine. Either the solenoid(s) or a split like you say. Hmmm, will have a gander to see what PP2K tells me.
Image
2003 - 2008: 1998 Peugeot 406 2.1 TD 110bhp LX Saloon
2008 - 2009: 2004 Honda Accord 2.2 CDTI 136bhp Executive Saloon
2009 - 2013: 2002 Peugeot 406 2.0 HDI 110bhp Executive Saloon
2013 - ????: 2007 Peugeot 407 2.2 HDI 170bhp Executive Saloon (mapped to 213bhp :twisted:)

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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by rwb » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:43 pm

Definitely worth going for a drive with the graphical parameter measurements running (note it doesn't show the graph until after you stop recording -- it doesn't appear in real time which sometimes makes people think that it's not working).
Image
(1) Air flow meter
(2) Air cleaner
(3) Air mixer (air doser)
(4) air/air heat exchanger
(6) Inlet air temperature sensor
(7) Inlet manifold pressure sensor
(8) Turbocharger turbine isolation valve 2 (VT2)
(9) Body of the exhaust turbine of the turbocharger 1
(10) Pressure regulation valve "Waste Gate" (VT1)
(11) Proportional oxygen sensor 1
(12) pre-catalyst
(13) catalytic converter
(14) Exhaust gas high temperature sensor downstream of the catalytic converter
(15) Particle filter
(16) Differential pressure sensorParticle filter
(17) Body of the exhaust turbine of the turbocharger 2
(18) Turbocharger 2 (Vrec) compressor air recirculation valve
(19) Body of the inlet air compressor of the turbocharger 2
(20) Pressure sensor downstream of the turbocharger 2 compressor
(21) Turbocharger 2 (VC2) compressor isolation valve
(22) Body of the inlet air compressor of the turbocharger 1
(23) Electric EGR electrovalve
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Captain Jack
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Captain Jack » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:12 pm

Hi Richard, what exact measurements should I be taking?

Last time I tried it, it just said please wait for a long time and never displayed the graphs :( is there some additional programme I need to install?
Image
2003 - 2008: 1998 Peugeot 406 2.1 TD 110bhp LX Saloon
2008 - 2009: 2004 Honda Accord 2.2 CDTI 136bhp Executive Saloon
2009 - 2013: 2002 Peugeot 406 2.0 HDI 110bhp Executive Saloon
2013 - ????: 2007 Peugeot 407 2.2 HDI 170bhp Executive Saloon (mapped to 213bhp :twisted:)

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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Welly » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:22 am

The jolting coming on/off the throttle sounds like engine mounts, classic symptoms and if left unchecked can start to pull on cables/hoses/exhaust flexi.
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Captain Jack
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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Captain Jack » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:46 pm

Yes, I thought so too but it doesn't happen every single time - surely a knackered mount would result in consistent jolting? Had look at the top one - seemed fine but I guess the culprit would be the bottom one, which, like in the 406, requires driveshaft removal.... And I know I already have a hole in flexi... :(

Regarding the super complicated vacuum system... I had a gander under the 'hood and managed to visually locate all of the solenoids. Three of them look easy to get to, fourth not so much but not a big pain either.

The vacuum pipes running to and behind the black hole that is the turbo are mainly made of aluminium, with only connection ends being rubber. Questions:

1) What is the difference between electrovalve (1) and solenoid valve (3) and which one would control the boost?
2) What are EGR vacuum pipes (20 and 21)? They seem to have some sort of erm.. thing at the end of it (like a flue cowl) but essentially don't go anywhere. Are they like relief valves or something?
3) How can I test any of these components?
4) Kelvin, did you ever get to the bottom of your vacuum leak?
Image
2003 - 2008: 1998 Peugeot 406 2.1 TD 110bhp LX Saloon
2008 - 2009: 2004 Honda Accord 2.2 CDTI 136bhp Executive Saloon
2009 - 2013: 2002 Peugeot 406 2.0 HDI 110bhp Executive Saloon
2013 - ????: 2007 Peugeot 407 2.2 HDI 170bhp Executive Saloon (mapped to 213bhp :twisted:)

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Re: Advice on niggly issues...

Post by Bailes1992 » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:18 pm

Had it always happened? Since a remap? Do you still have your EGR in check?

Only asking because my Focus displays the exact occasional jolting you are getting and it's an EGR calibration issue.
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