Sluggish HDI and more...

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ShadowStripes
1.8 8v
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:57 pm
Location: Portugal... or wherever the road takes me...

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by ShadowStripes » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:20 pm

frog wrote:
Cheers, and good luck finding time to breathe! :D
Yea, one less thing to check is good :lol:

In the meantime, managed to squeeze a 'little' time to breathe, so I did manage to check a few things.

I located the electro-valves on the bulkhead, and (I think) I found the one connected to the wastegate actuator. With the engine running, I blipped the throttle a few times and the rubber tubing felt really stiff, so I'm 'guessing' that wouldn't be the issue... (?)

Also, new "Behaviour Patterns" !! :lol:
It seems to be a 'little' (special emphasis on 'little') bit quicker going through the revs, while in 1st and 2nd gear, and there's definitely a bit of a boost reaching 2200rpm and again at around 2800...

SO, on my way to work today I took it to a local motorway and tried the old "3rd gear pull".

Up to 2000rpm, it feels like something's pushing the front backwards, but it keeps going
From 2000 to 3000 I can definitely feel those two boost peaks, the one at 2800 being the most noticeable one

I can pull it all the way to 4500rpm and around 110kph, but the dragging feeling is a lot more noticeable.

As soon as I shift into 4th, it 'really' starts dragging as if it was going down a hill and engine braking! Then settles at around 3000, even with the foot to the floor. And after that, even if I put it on neutral and floor it, it get's 'reeeally' sluggish going through the revs, and it cuts just before 3000.

I really dunno what to think, other than it might be an electronic gremiln with the injection...? I still haven't replaced the MAF sensor, but somehow I'm not sure it would help... or would it?

Opinions, suggestions...?

...help? :cry:
2001 -> 2016 - a bunch of Puntos, Golfs, Astras and even a Clio
2016 -> ____ - Y2000 406 Break 2.0 HDI 110 Executive (Monaco Blue)

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Captain Jack
3.0 24v
Posts: 3782
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:26 am
Location: Langford, Somerset

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by Captain Jack » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:27 pm

Almost sounds like it's in limp mode. Do you have PP2000?
Image
2003 - 2008: 1998 Peugeot 406 2.1 TD 110bhp LX Saloon
2008 - 2009: 2004 Honda Accord 2.2 CDTI 136bhp Executive Saloon
2009 - 2013: 2002 Peugeot 406 2.0 HDI 110bhp Executive Saloon
2013 - ????: 2007 Peugeot 407 2.2 HDI 170bhp Executive Saloon (mapped to 213bhp :twisted:)

ShadowStripes
1.8 8v
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:57 pm
Location: Portugal... or wherever the road takes me...

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by ShadowStripes » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:31 pm

Captain Jack wrote:Almost sounds like it's in limp mode. Do you have PP2000?
Not unfortunately, no...
2001 -> 2016 - a bunch of Puntos, Golfs, Astras and even a Clio
2016 -> ____ - Y2000 406 Break 2.0 HDI 110 Executive (Monaco Blue)

dirtydirtydiesel
3.0 24v
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:02 pm
Location: Coalville, Leics.

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by dirtydirtydiesel » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:28 pm

Happy birthday mate, did you get this resolved, if not where are you based, see if someone can help with pp2000
You seem to have similar problem's to me :(
2002 110 HDi estate, Rapier in monaco blue! ( found quite a bit more power :cheesy: )
1999 3.0 V6 SE coupe in Diablo Red ( my baby )
2006 206 1.4 16v sport in Aegean blue ( wife's shopping trolley :roll: )

pp2000 owner / user, can offer Diagnostic's / fault code, reading / clearing for beer tokens in Leicestershire.

ShadowStripes
1.8 8v
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:57 pm
Location: Portugal... or wherever the road takes me...

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by ShadowStripes » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:01 am

dirtydirtydiesel wrote:Happy birthday mate, did you get this resolved, if not where are you based, see if someone can help with pp2000
You seem to have similar problem's to me :(
Heyy, thanks for the birthday wishes =)

As for the problem, no clue either... and I'm in Portugal, so it's difficult to find someone around locally to help with PP2000. Worst case scenario, I'll need to get one myself...

However, I've narrowed it down to either a faulty Turbo Pressure sensor, or a faulty turbo actuator electrovalve. a lot of trial and error, a lot of reading around in forums and Youtube, and a bit of the good ole' Logical Thinking :P

I've yet to have a full free day to get under the bonnet and get working with replacing stuffs... But as soon as I do, I'll definitely share the results here.

Cheers =)
2001 -> 2016 - a bunch of Puntos, Golfs, Astras and even a Clio
2016 -> ____ - Y2000 406 Break 2.0 HDI 110 Executive (Monaco Blue)

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GingerMagic
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Location: Bournemouth

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by GingerMagic » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:30 pm

Do you have access to a vacuum pump or vacuum gauge?

This will help, as when I had an issue with my turbo, it was because the turbo do was not getting enough vacuum to open the vanes - I had a blockage in the plastic 3 way clip on the vacuum pump.
1999 T4 family wagon, slow as a turd but the kids like it
2002 Citroen Xsara Picasso Hdi90 - Dirtied by the kids, Dented by the wife....
Sadly sold the 406, best cars I have ever owned
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.

ShadowStripes
1.8 8v
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:57 pm
Location: Portugal... or wherever the road takes me...

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by ShadowStripes » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:12 pm

GingerMagic wrote:Do you have access to a vacuum pump or vacuum gauge?

This will help, as when I had an issue with my turbo, it was because the turbo do was not getting enough vacuum to open the vanes - I had a blockage in the plastic 3 way clip on the vacuum pump.
I thought of getting one to test the vacuum lines... just so much to consider, I can't even grasp :?
2001 -> 2016 - a bunch of Puntos, Golfs, Astras and even a Clio
2016 -> ____ - Y2000 406 Break 2.0 HDI 110 Executive (Monaco Blue)

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GingerMagic
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by GingerMagic » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:09 pm

Not hard.
Just make sure vacuum is supplying the turbo solenoid - no vacuum means no turbo.
If you can get a vacuum gauge then I can help you find a possible problem.
1999 T4 family wagon, slow as a turd but the kids like it
2002 Citroen Xsara Picasso Hdi90 - Dirtied by the kids, Dented by the wife....
Sadly sold the 406, best cars I have ever owned
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.

ShadowStripes
1.8 8v
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:57 pm
Location: Portugal... or wherever the road takes me...

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by ShadowStripes » Wed May 10, 2017 5:38 pm

Ok, I am now officially stuck...

Still having trouble with the turbo not giving any boost, and with the turbo/wastegate solenoid error in the ECU, I decided to replace both electrovalves on the firewall.

Felt optimistic cuz it seemed to bring the turbo back to life, with a hint of a 'whistling' sound now evident as I turned the throttle.

But it 'still' drives sluggish, the turbo 'still' doesn't produce any noticeable boost, it smokes like Hell, and I can't seem to clear the errors from the ECU... which means whatever caused these is still there.

I'm about to go look for a PP2000 kit to see if I can get anymore info, or 'test' the servos, or 'activate' some function the ECU may have deactivated or clear the errors for good or reset the ECU or SOMETHING...


I am literally lost here...

So, any advice or assistance will be greatly appreciated. (=_=)
2001 -> 2016 - a bunch of Puntos, Golfs, Astras and even a Clio
2016 -> ____ - Y2000 406 Break 2.0 HDI 110 Executive (Monaco Blue)

PeterN
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Location: Charmouth, Dorset

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by PeterN » Wed May 10, 2017 11:12 pm

Assuming the turbo is actually working, black smoke would suggest a restricted air supply, try disconnecting the the air feed pipe from the inlet manifold and see if it still does it, you won't have any turbo boost though. If that improves it try disconnecting the air inlet to the turbo and note the effect.

Peter

ShadowStripes
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Posts: 24
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:57 pm
Location: Portugal... or wherever the road takes me...

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by ShadowStripes » Wed May 10, 2017 11:18 pm

Ok, so the air inlet is 'before' the air filter.... so, if I open the air filter it should have the same effect, right?

Is it possible at all that the inlet is somehow clogged or closed or obstructed... or crushed due to some inexplicable and undocumented frontal collision... ?

:evil:
2001 -> 2016 - a bunch of Puntos, Golfs, Astras and even a Clio
2016 -> ____ - Y2000 406 Break 2.0 HDI 110 Executive (Monaco Blue)

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Doggy
Mod with a 2.2 HDi, De-Fapped!
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by Doggy » Wed May 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Could also be a boost leak - a loose or perished hose for example.
That will result in too much fuel, lack of boost and black smoke.
Check for leaks, also the air hose onto the inlet manifold should 'inflate' if you increase the revs.
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate

PeterN
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Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:04 pm
Location: Charmouth, Dorset

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by PeterN » Wed May 10, 2017 11:45 pm

No it won't because between the filter and the engine intake comes the intercooler and a lot of pipe work. Certainly check the air filter though.

Peter

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GingerMagic
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by GingerMagic » Thu May 11, 2017 6:43 am

ShadowStripes wrote:Ok, so the air inlet is 'before' the air filter.... so, if I open the air filter it should have the same effect, right?
There is a pipe that runs from the passenger inner wing to the air filter housing, of which the outer half is plastic with holes in the bottom ( do NOT go through deep water..!! ) and the inner half is a sort of fabric affair.
You can simply* lift the air filter housing up an inch or two to clear the feed pipe and rest it on the lip - take a drive like this and see if it improves - although I've not heard of an Hdi inlet blocking up or collapsing - only the petrol models.
PeterN wrote:No it won't because between the filter and the engine intake comes the intercooler and a lot of pipe work. Certainly check the air filter though.
Sorry Peter but there should be a noticeable swelling/hardening on the pipe from the intercooler to the inlet fanimold, the intercooler doesn't restrict any air flow.
1999 T4 family wagon, slow as a turd but the kids like it
2002 Citroen Xsara Picasso Hdi90 - Dirtied by the kids, Dented by the wife....
Sadly sold the 406, best cars I have ever owned
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.

frog
2.0 16v
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:18 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by frog » Thu May 11, 2017 7:32 am

Hold on ShadowStripes, you're nearly there! :D

I think Doggy is right, that it is a boost leak. Seems that the turbo is working fine now: the air flow sensor is measuring lots of air intake, so the engine computer is ordering a lot of fuel to be delivered. But a lot of air is leaked so it doesn't arrive at the engine intake, this results in overfueling hence black smoke.

Check the fat black rubber air duct pipes. There is one below, from the turbo to the intercooler (number 3 in the attachment), and one above, from the intercooler to the air doser (number 4). Check also for a leaking intercooler.
Image

I had exactly the same experience about 1,5 year ago. Turned out pipe number 4 was leaking.
Attachments
Turbo air piping.jpg
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Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

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