Sluggish HDI and more...

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PeterN
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by PeterN » Thu May 11, 2017 8:58 am

Would not the reduction in pressure due to a leak cause the fuel input to be reduced, no?

Peter

frog
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by frog » Thu May 11, 2017 10:37 am

The Bosch EDC15C2 as used in this model runs on air flow (i.e. the MAF sensor, just after the air filter)

Only if the MAF sensor readings are considered to be off-range (or not present e.g. if you unplug its electrical connector), it will switch to running on the air pressure (i.e. the MAP sensor, at the top of the intercooler).

So if you unplug the MAF sensor the smoke should be gone :D But the lack of power will remain.
Current "fleet":
2003 406 Estate 2.0HDi 110 (109 PS) - 7 seater
2001 Citroen Saxo 1.6i 8v 100 (98 PS)

Previously owned:
2000 406 Sedan 2.0 HDi 90 (90 PS)
2000 406 Coupé 2.0i 16v 138 (135 PS) - Riviera Blue

PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Netherlands.

ShadowStripes
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by ShadowStripes » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:54 pm

frog wrote: (...)
Only if the MAF sensor readings are considered to be off-range (or not present e.g. if you unplug its electrical connector), it will switch to running on the air pressure (i.e. the MAP sensor, at the top of the intercooler)
(...)

Question...
The sluggishness is a given, I'll be sure to check the rubber tubes for any leaks as soon as I can wriggle my 'dainty' self under the car.

However, along with the sluggishness, the engine sometimes starts 'cutting' just below 3000rpm, usually when I boot the throttle to get over a gradient or 'try' to overtake someone... I have to turn the car off for a few seconds, and it'll then stop cutting.

Though, a while back I noticed the same 'symptoms' when I disconnected the MAP sensor, on the top of the intercooler... it would again cut at just below 3000rpm, and leave an error on the ECU.

Is it possible that the MAP is faulty and giving some odd readings, and that's what's causing the engine to 'hold back' ?
2001 -> 2016 - a bunch of Puntos, Golfs, Astras and even a Clio
2016 -> ____ - Y2000 406 Break 2.0 HDI 110 Executive (Monaco Blue)

ShadowStripes
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by ShadowStripes » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:14 pm

Quick Update with another question...


A friend of mine has a 1.4 HDi 307... and complained about pretty much the same symptoms as me.

Though he said he took his car to a mechanic and they cleaned up the EGR and pretty much (quote) "Hollowed Out" the cat...
Says the car darts through inclines in 5th like never before.

I'm a little uncertain about hollowing out the cat, mainly cuz of local roadworthyness tests and having to remap the ECU and whatnot... Though, is it possible that the EGR might be clogged or stuck and 'that' is why the car is stuck in limp ?
2001 -> 2016 - a bunch of Puntos, Golfs, Astras and even a Clio
2016 -> ____ - Y2000 406 Break 2.0 HDI 110 Executive (Monaco Blue)

ShadowStripes
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by ShadowStripes » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:40 pm

And 5 months later...

I finally got my PP2000 to work!

Connected it, entered all the info requested, VIN, DAM, etc etc etc...

now... what do I do? :oops:
I went through the tests and tested everything... no faults
Scanned the ECU for faults, and it showed faults with the EGR and turbo valves, like the other app I'd used... but also with clutch sensor and throttle sensor and the glow relay... some of them showing as 'Open Circuit' .

I'll (hopefully) have some time this weekend to give it a thorough look-over. But would be nice if anyone would have an idea of what steps to follow in order to do a good check-up.

cheers
2001 -> 2016 - a bunch of Puntos, Golfs, Astras and even a Clio
2016 -> ____ - Y2000 406 Break 2.0 HDI 110 Executive (Monaco Blue)

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Doggy
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by Doggy » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:00 pm

Make a note of all the fault codes/descriptions, then clear them. The intermittent ones may not reappear so can be disregarded.
Concentrate on what's left.
You can ignore the glowplug one, they pretty much all do that and the glow plugs play no part once the engine's been running for a minute or so.

With the engine stopped, check the throttle position value - should be 0% at rest and 99% with the accelerator buried in the carpet. If you don't get 99%, adjust the cable at the TPS sensor, make sure it still returns to 0% afterwards.

Next have a look at the fuel pressure - there are values for requested and actual, (or words to that effect). From memory you get about 200 bar while cranking the engine, 300/350 at idle and up to 1350 under full load. See if the actual follows the requested within about 50 bar.

Do the same thing with the turbo / inlet pressure, Not familiar with 110's but I think you should get around 1000/1100 mbar at idle, rising to something over 2000 at full load, again the actual should follow the requested more or less. IIRC fixed geometry turbo pressures always look a bit high at idle.

I know you've swapped the MAF, but you can check for sensible numbers - should be something like 400 max at idle, increasing with throttle position. High initial airfow values that reduce as you gently build engine revs usually means a duff MAF.

Report back what you see and anything else that doesn't seem right.
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate

ShadowStripes
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by ShadowStripes » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:33 pm

Thank you so much for the hints, Doggy!
Just spent a couple hours poking around PP2000 until my laptop battery ran out.
Doggy wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:00 pm
Make a note of all the fault codes/descriptions, then clear them. The intermittent ones may not reappear so can be disregarded.
Concentrate on what's left.
You can ignore the glowplug one, they pretty much all do that and the glow plugs play no part once the engine's been running for a minute or so.

Diagnostics as follows...

Faults read and cleared, then took the car for a drive around the block and read faults again. What remained was the following:

- Permanent Fault. Turbo Pressure. Turbo Pressure Measured Too Low.
ECU Fault code - P0246
Engine Speed - 2699 rpm
Actual Delivery - 38 mm3/stroke
Turbo Pressure - 1224mbars
Turbo Pressure Reference Value - 2282
EGR Solenoid Valve OCR - 88%

- Permanent Fault. Clutch Switch Signal. Consistency with Vehicle Speed.
ECU Fault Code - P1521
Engine Speed - 2422 rpm
Output Required - 58 mm3/stroke
Vehicle Speed - 87 kph
Command for deceleration of Cruise Control - Inactive
Clutch - Active
Air Conditioning Compressor Cut-Off - Active
Main Brake Switch - Inactive
Ignition Positive - Active
Actual Delivery - 47 mm3/stroke

- Permanent Fault. Pre/Post heating relay circuit. Relay Opened. (this one I ignored)

- Intermittent Fault. Accelerator Pedal Signal 2. Coherence with Accelerator pedal signal 1.
ECU Fault Code - P0221
Pedal Sensor Position 1 - 73%
Pedal Sensor Position 2 - 85%
Engine Speed - 1510 rpm
Actual Delivery - 42 mm3/stroke
Command for deceleration of Cruise Control - Inactive
Clutch - Active
Air Conditioning Compressor Cut-Off - Active
Main Brake Switch - Inactive
Ignition Positive - Active
Doggy wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:00 pm
With the engine stopped, check the throttle position value - should be 0% at rest and 99% with the accelerator buried in the carpet. If you don't get 99%, adjust the cable at the TPS sensor, make sure it still returns to 0% afterwards.
Throttle position readings were Ok: 0% at rest, and 99% floored.
Doggy wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:00 pm
Next have a look at the fuel pressure - there are values for requested and actual, (or words to that effect). From memory you get about 200 bar while cranking the engine, 300/350 at idle and up to 1350 under full load. See if the actual follows the requested within about 50 bar.

Here things started getting interesting!
Fuel pressure oscillated between 400-ish and 500-ish, never going beyond 600 even on full load. Tried it in neutral with the car parked, and in 1st and 2nd gear, in a stretch of quiet road.
Doggy wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:00 pm
Do the same thing with the turbo / inlet pressure, Not familiar with 110's but I think you should get around 1000/1100 mbar at idle, rising to something over 2000 at full load, again the actual should follow the requested more or less. IIRC fixed geometry turbo pressures always look a bit high at idle.
Same with Turbo pressure, it remained between 1000 and 1100, even on full throttle, parked or in motion.
Doggy wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:00 pm
I know you've swapped the MAF, but you can check for sensible numbers - should be something like 400 max at idle, increasing with throttle position. High initial airfow values that reduce as you gently build engine revs usually means a duff MAF.
Airflow remained around 550-ish at idle, going down a bit as revs go up, but remaining above 510...

I also tested all the actuators, and everything made clicking sounds which I'm pretty sure they're supposed to.

Also noticed in the readings that it showed a "no.3 piston high pressure pump" showed as deactivated when under load... not sure if it's of any importance.


Any comments or suggestions?
2001 -> 2016 - a bunch of Puntos, Golfs, Astras and even a Clio
2016 -> ____ - Y2000 406 Break 2.0 HDI 110 Executive (Monaco Blue)

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GingerMagic
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by GingerMagic » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:43 pm

I can't add much to what Doggy wrote, but the P0246 code will put the fault light on....
The TPS (throttle position sensor) can be cleaned out with contact cleaner or similar - not the bit under the 4 screws as this is filled with jelly, but the other part is made of a couple of springs and a contact which can get tarnished over time.
The 3rd piston refers to one in the fuel pump, it just shuts off when ticking over or under deceleration - it's the orange plug on the fuel pump.
Not sure about the clutch sensor, might be worth robbing one from a scrapyard and swapping it over - you will need a flexible spine for this job.....
Again, ignore the post heating relay - it's for the glow plugs which aren't needed unless it's around -15°...
1999 T4 family wagon, slow as a turd but the kids like it
2002 Citroen Xsara Picasso Hdi90 - Dirtied by the kids, Dented by the wife....
Sadly sold the 406, best cars I have ever owned
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.

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Doggy
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by Doggy » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:33 am

Have you got a boost leak or the sensor pipe broken off for the MAP sensor, (at the top of the intercooler)?
Does the pipe from the intercooler go rigid when you rev the engine up?

It's definitely not trying. Since you seem pretty handy with this stuff, could you change the state of the clutch pedal signal to eliminate it?
(Don't know the detail, but I think it's set up to limit power if it thinks the clutch is depressed).
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate

PeterN
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Re: Sluggish HDI and more...

Post by PeterN » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:45 pm

I can't remember whether I have mentioned it on this thread before but the turbo boost was down on my 2.0 Hdi, in fact nothing below 2000 rpm and it turned out to be a worn vacuum pump, I fitted the one from my spare car in the field and it now pulls strongly from 1500 rpm and as a bonus the brakes work better.

Peter

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